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Started by Coach Sommer, April 2, 2008 · 54 Replies · 83,285 Views
For planche, turn your palms...
For handstand is shoulder flexibility very important (ok you can do a handstand with a bad flexibility, but you know, what will handstand look like). With better sholder flex. it's easier to hold handstand (less back and shoulder work), easier to do presses to handstands, turns,... and looks much more estetic.
I started doing these bulgarian dips less than a month ago, as you can see from my earlier post on 24 October. Now I can do a muscle up.
With rings hanging at collar-bone height, I did these bulgarian dips until my legs were almost touching the floor, and held that position.
I was not specifically training to get a muscle up, since I assumed that was a far off goal of 6 months or more.
I figured today was a good day to start pull-ups with false grip, but at the top of the pullup I figured why not try to go all the way. And I got up there with minimal effort.
That accomplished, the muscle up is highly overrated by the crossfit crowd. The power comes chiefly from the inside forearm, not really a full body strength maneuver.
I had the back lever down within the 1st month of ring training, vice 2 months for muscle up, however the back lever is an intense exercise from my toes all the way up to my neck. Much more "full body" than mere muscle up.
Just goes to show, if you follow the correct progressions, wrist strength, the basic building blocks will get you there fast and with minimal injury. I never used any surgical tubing.
Onto the next challenge, but I will keep doing these bulgarian dips as they work wonders.
User24 said:I started doing these bulgarian dips less than a month ago, as you can see from my earlier post on 24 October. Now I can do a muscle up.With rings hanging at collar-bone height, I did these bulgarian dips until my legs were almost touching the floor, and held that position.
I was not specifically training to get a muscle up, since I assumed that was a far off goal of 6 months or more.
I figured today was a good day to start pull-ups with false grip, but at the top of the pullup I figured why not try to go all the way. And I got up there with minimal effort.
That accomplished, the muscle up is highly overrated by the crossfit crowd. The power comes chiefly from the inside forearm, not really a full body strength maneuver.
I had the back lever down in a month, but it is an intense maneuver from my toes all the way up to my neck. Much more "full body" than mere muscle up.
Thanks.
is your muscle up strict? or do your legs move alot?
I can do muscle-ups too but don't count them because they aren't strict. I try to practice perfect form as much as I can.
That's the beef I have with crossfit, they seem to totally butcher their form in the name of conditioning. I don't consider crossfit muscleups "true" muscleups.
I've noticed that as well with the crossfit muscle ups and chinups. It seems the kipping and swinging provides alot of the momentum, instead of muscle.
in all fairness crossfit has a different goal... crossfit kipping pull-ups train power and gymnastic style pull-ups train strength... power and strength are not the samething... i think both ways should be respected for what they are...
Crossfit kipping pull-ups seem to be training power because they're done faster, right? I don't know much about strength vs power. Power adds the element of speed, correct?
But it seems like the momentum from swinging means you don't have to pull as hard with your muscles to get up. It seems like a gymnastics-type muscle up (for lack of a better term) performed at the same speed as a crossfit style muscle-up would be more powerful.
And no dis-respect to crossfitters either. Some of those WODs are crazy, even if you are kipping on the pullups or muscle ups!
It seems important to push the envelope on the wrist turn-out at the top of the bulgarian dips, to really hit those elbows for faster improvement.
From where I stand, I think once the wrists and elbows are built up enough, everything else will come faster since the joints will no longer be the limiting factor.
is your muscle up strict? or do your legs move alot?I can do muscle-ups too but don't count them because they aren't strict. I try to practice perfect form as much as I can.
I don't know what you mean by "strict" form. However, there is a gymnastics meet tonight, and I will ask if I may record myself performing muscle up, bulgarian dips, etc. If they allow me, I would put it on the "Digital Coaching" forum. I only got rings two months ago, don't know much about "form" yet.
For what it's worth, if it had not been for crossfit sweeping the nation, there would not be 4 sets of rings in the gym at work, and I would have never found out about gymnastics bodies!
When I say '"strict" I mean are your legs wildy moving about ? ar you using alot of momentun?
Look at Coach Sommer's guys doing muscleups:
or
When they do a muscleup at the beginning of the video, their legs barely move at all. Hence, true strength has been built with the absence of momentum.
Now, contrast that with a video of crossfitters performing muscle-ups
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwPN0Ozu3bU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv3SEyEF ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o65VzdSB ... re=related
etc. etc.
Also, this video is always tossed around,
it probably has the best form of a muscleup I've seen on video. It's right at the beginning. His leg's don't even move at all.
You get the idea.
Got it. As promised, my muscle-up videos are up in the Digital Coaching forum. They show the 5th, 6th, and 7th muscle-ups that I ever performed in my life. I start each one from a dead hang, and definitely look like Coach Sommer's guys. Figures, I have been using his training techniques through the internet. Thanks so much to deep bulgarian ring dips.
My first muscle-up I ever did in my life, was a strict muscle-up. For weeks, I kept watching those crossfit guys do muscle-ups in the gym, on the higher rings, while I was training on the rings down below. I was determined to get the underlying foundation first, and it paid off.
Hey, good job. Your muscleups are pretty solid. Especially the first ones. I like how you move slow throught the movement.
User24, very nicely done. And an excellent example that laying a great foundation of basic strength is always the quickest way to progress.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
What does " extend range of instability " mean?
Quick questions - is there greater benefit in this dipping application to go deeper on the dip, while of course keeping the rings the same distance from one's torso as they are at the 90 degree bend?
I've become pretty good at keeping the rings completely turned out and have since been trying to increase the difficulty of my dips by gradually increasing the distance the rings are from my body, while keeping the rings turned out the entire time. Today I switched up to the bulgarian dip style portrayed in the video. When allowing the rings to turn in once my arms were at a 90 degree angle, I felt my chest doing more work vs my triceps working more with the rings turned out roughly the same distance from my torso. Guess my question here is: should I worry less about keeping the rings turned out the entire dipping motion, and if so, would I benefit more from dipping "deeper" during my bulgarian dips or just work to maintain that 90 degree angle?
thanks again!
Actually to my mind you have three options:
1) You may add weight to your Bulgarian Dips
2) You may change your focus to HSPU variations
3) You may begin focusing on specific physical preparation for more advanced ring strength variations.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
I've just started implimenting these, and while I'm getting better at them (up to 3 sets of 4) I'm finding that my clavicle gets sore while lowering myself down.
Is this something to worry about, or is it a stretching process that will work itself out over time?
erikmckinley said:I'm finding that my clavicle gets sore while lowering myself down.
You should not continue to push through the pain. The ac joint being sore is evidence that you are exceeding your current ROM. Your options are either reducing your ROM or changing to an easier dip variation until your strength and flexibility increases.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
User24 said:From where I stand, I think once the wrists and elbows are built up enough, everything else will come faster since the joints will no longer be the limiting factor.
I can't agree more. I'd add shoulders to the list since mine have been a limiting factor for me 
Hooray for handstand wall runs and chest expanders, they have both helped so much!
erikmckinley: I'll post a video to help show you how to effectively stretch away the pain you're having. You want to listen to Coach and either restrict your ROM or go to an easier variation until we take care of that flexibility issue. That pain can quickly turn into a debilitating chronic condition if you try to keep training it. I will post the video in this thread when it is ready. It should be on here by the 10th at the latest.
Is there a link of this Bulgarian ring dip shot from the profile view? I can't quite tell how straight the back is during the movement. I think the lack of leaning forward is the true charm to how difficult this exercise can be.
whats the difference in the muscles being recruited between a normal dip and the Bulgarian dip? and should you be training with both dips? and if i can dip with added 30kilos on regular ring dips how much would i be able to Bulgarian dip with weights? =]
There is an essay on Bulgarian dips available here on the forum. They are also covered in complete detail in BtGB.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
yo coach would u say practicing weighted Bulgarian ring dips would benefit my bench press capabilities? i got a comp in a few months and just wondering id be better off practicing benching purely for the bench press event or mix of Bulgarian dips and benching
To be the best in one thing you must do that thing.
You can do as auxiliary exercise though.
If you are for results it would be better to go through tested scheme peparation with someone who's expert in bench pressing.
One thing for sure I can say: if you follow the WODs here your bench will increase considerably. Happened to me and I don't train bench anymore, just once a week or once a month. 8)
Mikael said:One thing for sure I can say: if you follow the WODs here your bench will increase considerably. Happened to me and I don't train bench anymore, just once a week or once a month. 8)
Depends on wich level you are. At high level certenly wouldn't be a big improvement. If you are begginr or mid level then absolutly would!
anhkun said:yo coach would u say practicing weighted Bulgarian ring dips would benefit my bench press capabilities? i got a comp in a few months and just wondering id be better off practicing benching purely for the bench press event or mix of Bulgarian dips and benching
I don't think these will have much of an effect on your bench press. Weighted ring dips will, but I'm willing to bet lunch that your bulgarian dip technique probably isn't correct. That's not meant to be an insult, it's just true for like 95% of us. Even mine isn't quite right yet, though I'm pretty close these days.
I think the MOST direct thing you can do, honestly, is single arm single leg push ups. You'll be able to tell right away how useful these will be. I suppose I should make a video and show what I mean, I wanted to wait until I could do them unspotted but I am finding them to be supremely useful. They're adding a ton of power AND speed (of course) to my punches, and my planche strength is increasing rapidly. Since planche strength and bench press strength are fairly well related (in terms of planche carrying over to bench) I would pretty much crap my pants if these don't make a significant difference for you.
Besides, structurally these are the hardest thing I've ever done for serratus anterior and the first thing that has actually felt right. Serratus is a large muscle you are relying on during bench to hold your shoulders in position, so you should get a good boost from one arm, one leg push ups.