...How to eat?

My friend,

Thanks for sharing your results.

According to your self-reported, anecdotal results of your peer group, which use estimations of bodyfat, would I be incorrect in saying your training methods haven't brought anyone under 10% bodyfat? Which is when one's abs will show.

I would also note that Ewalk is presenting an incredibly common set of traits (i.e. a low-fat diet, insufficient caloric intake, insufficient protein, excessive carbohydrates), and one that requires only a bit of nutrition tweaking for him to see results. As the study in the NY Times above mentions, you burn more fat sleeping than with moderate cardio exercise, such as walking.

Just to put this information on the table again, I would contrast your prescription with another path that is available to those looking to lean out. Peer-reviewed clinical trials have shown without doubt that when you compare a low-fat/high-carb diet, such as the one you're prescribing, with a low-carb diet, the low-carb group always loses more weight faster, has better lipid profile, and sustains the weight loss for longer.

This is as reported in the the New England Medical Journal, Lancet, JAMA, Obesity Journal, and BMJ.

Thanks again for sharing you and your friend's results. Ewalk, best of luck.

best,

jason

P.S. Griff, the Starting Strength forum is a great place to look with regards to what's possible with weight gain if you drink your gallon of milk a day. As Justin Lascek, a co-trainer at Wichita Falls Strength Club, has posted: "I still have guys in our gym gain 25 pounds in a little over a month and 40 pounds in about 2.5 months (obviously without steroids). This is not uncommon, as Rip has echoed hundreds of times before."

Granted, he doesn't make the distinction between lean muscle and fat, but still, 25 pounds is 25 pounds.

And as Mr. Rippetoe has posted: "We have a kid that has recently gained 48 pounds in 10 weeks."

My thoughts on Slizzard's reported gains are also echoed on that board, that such weight gain is possible for "adolescents, whose hormonal milieu is such that training them is like training someone on steroids, and underweight novices." I would not be surprised to learn that hormonal profile extends to late teens and very early 20s.

Jason, I think you are misinterpreting my dietary recommendations, but that's understandable since I wasn't super clear on them. We were very poor, and rice + red meat at the time was the cheapest thing we could eat. Well, chicken too, but beef had so much more fat and tastes so much better! Anyhow, our overall caloric breakdown was 20-25% protein, 30-40% fat, and 40-ish % carbs. We did have slightly more carbs than fats, but not by much, and if I had it to do again I would definitely recommend a bit more monounsaturated fat, with slightly more fats than carbs. That is working out much better for me, and I think it would have been better back then too!

As for the bodyfat, I kept myself around 7% while in the Navy with similar methods, and I dropped from 13% to 9%. My friends had no interest in dropping below 10%. Their girlfriends, and mine, seem to prefer the 12% range. I did it anyways, but that's just me As I lift heavier it seems better to have a little more fat, around 14%. I've read that heavy lifters have joint pains when they go below 15%, but I don't know for sure. That's just hearsay in my book until I experience differently

You are also showing results from a study that is not having people walk the way I do, which invalidates the claim. We saw visible results from one day to the next, with clothes continually fitting looser around the waist and muscles continually becoming more defined. It is not my fault that no one has done a study on the style of walking that I recommend, and I am not claiming to have invented it. My friend gave me the idea, he dropped 60 lbs in 6 months doing the walking, and as I was already working quite hard I gave it a try in lieu of the intervals, and it was great. I brought it home and my friends saw great results as well.

You are absolutely right that Ewalk is going to see results when he fixes his diet I am simply suggesting a low-stress solution for an athlete who is already doing a lot of work. Your proposed solutions will work as well, and slightly faster, but it wil cut into his strength, and that may not be desirable. It's up to him.

Well i don't THINK i take in a lot of carbs...but i guess i can rethink it? I mean losing strength for abs is definitely not worth it. And yes with the way i work out i still continue to stay at 18% body fat. But also i think i work out a good amount for my body to not store my carbs. So should i rethink my carb intake though?

Here's the skinny on it, short and sweet. You want to take in around one gram of protein per pound of body weight. Like I said, that's going to be around 18% of your total calories. That leaves 82%. You need to start with a more or less even split between the fats and the carbs, and see what makes you perform the best. Your primary consideration is to perform as an athlete, right? So that has to be #1. When you change your diet to have the correct number of calories, you will find that you may still feel less than fully energized. That means you need to change something. You may need more carbs and less fat. You may benefit from 50% carbs, but probably not more than that. It's going to depend on YOUR performance. If you start performing better and feel energetic with 18/40/42 or something like that, with that being protein/fat/carbs then that's good. It means you've found where your body wants to be. If you don't feel energetic enough, increase the carbs a little bit, especially on heavier training days, and decrease the fats a little. Don't let your fats get below 30% of your total calories, that will be a mistake. You need the good fats to build healthy cells, produce more testosterone, and regulate blood sugar. If that still doesn't help, then decrease the carbs some and increase the fats. If THAT doesn't help, replace some of the carbs with meats. If NONE of that helps, come back here and tell us. It's going to take a few weeks of experimentation for you to figure out exactly what your body needs. Don't be afraid to change your diet a few times, and spend at least a week with whatever nutrient levels you pick before changing again, and write down how you feel with each change. Once you've tried all the combinations, go with what made you feel and perform the best.

And the calorie guidelines are not rigid for each day. Some days you will want to eat a few hundred more, and some a few hundred less. That is natural and healthy. Don't force down the last few bites of sweet potatoes if you are totally satisfied and not hungry at all. If you're so hungry that you need an extra meal that day, eat an extra meal. The numbers I gave should be your daily average, like if you added up ALL the calories you ate for a week and divided by 7(because I am talking about a 7 day week), you should get a number in the range I gave you.

jason...

first... i can not refute anecdotal evidence... but if you have scientific research (nejm or jama articles would be great) that shows subjects gain 4-5lbs of muscle per week i'ld love to see it... show me whats possible :wink:

second... i'm not saying you can not gain 40lbs in 10 weeks... what i am saying is that you can not gain 4-5lbs of muscle per week... the rate of protein synthesis is limited... this limit depends on many factors... i believe the acsm and the nasm say you can gain 1-2lbs of muscle per week...

and yes... there is a huge difference between gaining 25 lbs and gaining 25lbs of muscle...

as a side note... i don't care if they swear on their mother's grave that they have never used steroids or performance enhancers... remember alex rodriguez, david ortiz, marion jones...

Griff,

If you have the time and inclination, you can follow just this discussion ("Max Possible LBM Gains") at Starting Strength here:

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=13374

Apparently their trainee who demonstrated the weight and corresponding strength gains was drinking two gallons of milk per day.

Rippetoe has 30-plus years of S&C experience. What do you do, and whom do you believe?

best,

jason

griffdrc said:

slizzardman said:

he went from 155 at 5'10" to 195 in 10 weeks

this is bs... you can't gain 40lbs of muscle in 10 weeks... thats 4lbs/week... sorry

slizzardman said:

Keep in mind that I was a highly trained athlete at the time

and i don't mean to sound harsh but what makes you say that? i had kids on my high school football team that could lift more than that and i wouldn't consider them highly trained athletes....

It's not bs, his bodyfat remained at 16%. Bryan went from 130.2 lbs of lean mass to 163.8 lbs of lean mass. so, a 33.6 lbs muscle gain. I honestly couldn't believe it myself, but his gains did slow down considerably after that. Keep in mind that Bryan had never lifted before in his life. He was a true rank beginner, and we were all 23-24 years old at the time. I told them that I fully expected them to gain 20-30 lbs in the first 3 months, and they did better than that. Both decided they were good where they were at and from that point just kept using the same weights and sets for maintenance. As for me, I was happy with my weight and worked exclusively on strength, but not taking care of my previous injuries properly stood in the way of significant bench development. I stalled out around 350 lbs max, but my squat went to doing 5 reps with 410 and my dead lift was doubles with 510, no belt or wraps or any other support equipment on any of those lifts. With support equipment, once for fun using wrist straps and a weight belt I deadlifted 605, just to see how it felt. I probably could have gotten closer to 625, but I have utter disdain for belts and wraps. Then I moved to California and sort of fell off the wagon. I maintained decent strength, but I actually stopped working out for 10 months, and afterwards didn't really start building back until this year.

As for my being a highly trained athlete, at the time I could run an 11.2 second 100 meters, in boots. I always ran in boots ever since BUD/S. I could run 4 miles in 24 minutes, go 5 5 minute rounds at full steam, and I could swim 2 miles in the ocean in under 75 minutes. That's pretty high level conditioning for an all around athlete, especially one at my weight. I can legitimately say that I was, at a certain point of time, in Olympic condition. I had a resting hearbeat of 42-45 beats per minute, and I have my Navy medical records to prove it. Hell, when I went to medical after jogging back from breakfast my hearbeat was under 50 beats per minute. Those numbers, I do have hard evidence for. All of them, either in my friends who timed me on the runs, the BUD/S instructors who timed me on the 4 miler and the swim, and in the medical documentation in my Naval medical record. I don't know what my vertical was, but I could jump on top of a flat surface two inches above my nipples with one step, and I had a 10 foot broad jump in steel toe boots. I used to jump from gripe anchor to gripe anchor on the boat deck all the time I was power cleaning 245, even though I didn't really train for it... I just wanted to know, and that's what I got. I never jerked or snatched, so I can't tell you anything on those. There was much more to me as an athlete than just the lifts. Those were by FAR my least impressive statistics in my opinion. I have yet to meet another athlete who could equal me in all areas. I know there are some, but very very few. I no longer have most of those abilities, but I'm going to get them back

There was a very good reason why no one could beat me when I got into fights, either with the marines or in the dojos in Japan. Plus, honestly, I was just bigger than most of them. I was in fantastic shape at the time, and I was good enough on my feet and fast enough with my hands to keep anyone from getting close enough to grapple, and no one had what it took on their feet to go even with me. I do credit that to a ton of time spent with my shipmate, CS3 Austin, down in the reefer decks. He is one of the fastest SOBs I have ever seen, he even made ME feel slow at first. He was always a little bit faster, but I closed the gap considerably.

griffdrc said:

jason...

first... i can not refute anecdotal evidence... but if you have scientific research (nejm or jama articles would be great) that shows subjects gain 4-5lbs of muscle per week i'ld love to see it... show me whats possible :wink:

second... i'm not saying you can not gain 40lbs in 10 weeks... what i am saying is that you can not gain 4-5lbs of muscle per week... the rate of protein synthesis is limited... this limit depends on many factors... i believe the acsm and the nasm say you can gain 1-2lbs of muscle per week...

and yes... there is a huge difference between gaining 25 lbs and gaining 25lbs of muscle...

as a side note... i don't care if they swear on their mother's grave that they have never used steroids or performance enhancers... remember alex rodriguez, david ortiz, marion jones...

Griff: The ACSM and NASM are both going off of studies that required participants to engage in specific dietary practices. The gains seen on my trainees and probably with Rippetoe's are the result of different nutritional guidelines. Bryan, for one, ate far more protein than he needed to according to the ISSA guidelines we were using. He ate the exact same amount of meat and drank just as much milk and protein as I did because he "likes meat. It makes me feel like some sort of cave man, you know? Like I just dragged down some huge fucking buffalo and bashed it's skull in with a rock ! GOD, cavemen are awesome." Yep, that's Bryan. He's a madman in a way, but I like him He was eating more than I would have preferred, but then he gained more than I expected too. I think that it was a combination of good genetics for muscle acquisition and high levels of macronutrients. We also all used creatine during that time. I didn't let then use it for the first month, but after that they were just too damn annoying, and they were really not in danger of hurting themselves anymore, so I said fine.

I am more than willing to undergo drug tests, my shit used to "randomly test me" every god damn week, for almost 3 months. I guess they finally were satisfied that I wasn't juicing. It was really annoying, but a huge compliment to me lol!

jason...

i know who rippetoe is... i've seen the forum... it's nothing new to me... i asked for science and you gave me anecdotal evidence... but maybe you should take a look at zach evetts and cliff swanson's numbers as posted by mark... 2.6-2.8lbs per week... that sounds very similar to what i've been saying... sorry but you can't gain 4+lbs of muscle per week

maybe i should call up dr ivy and tell him the secret ingredent that he's been missing all these years... MILK! wow i bet the scientific community will feel pretty silly... it's been right under their nose the whole time...

and rippetoe has been lifting and coaching longer than i've been alive... i can't compete with his resume... i have competed at the senior level in wrestling and made a us world team... i have a bs in human physiology/pre-med... and i believe science...

slizzard...

sorry if i came off a little harsh... but too many people say that they are highly trained or elite athletes... it does sound like you were in good shape...

i know that many of the studies are very simple and years behind the lifting community in areas... if you or rippetoe know the holy grail to gaining muscle then call dr ivy... i'm sure he would love to be enlightened

We can certainly try I am pretty sure RIppetoe would have better luck since he is by far the more well known trainer, seeing as I do not have a degree or anything, not to mention his vast experience. When I start going to GA State I will try, I am planning on majoring in exercise science as well as psychology.

Don't worry griff, you should be skeptical I don't take it to heart Skepticism is one of the signs of a logical mind And I do take back what I said, there is one athlete I have met who could keep up with me. He was a shipmate of mine, his name was Chris Davis. He was what I can only describe as a genetic beast. He wasn't particularly huge, 5'9 at 162 lbs, but he had practically no body fat on him. I don't know what the upper limits of his strength were, but they were similar to mine. He actually got in trouble at BUD/S for lifting one of his classmates up AS HE WAS DOING A PULL UP. He was on the bar, reached over to his struggling friend with one arm while still pulling up with the other, grabbed the back of his t-shirt, and pulled him up as well. I was skeptical of this story, which he expected, so he promptly performed 10 one arm deadhang pull-ups with his left arm, not chins, pull ups. Body straight with the bar just like a regular pullup. He then, without coming down, switched to the right and did the same thing. I was dumbfounded. That's like legendary super-saiyan shit. He could do 60 degree pushups, not quite 90, but he never actually practiced those to my knowledge during his time on the ship. He never shared his training knowledge with myself or Austin because he was jealous of our already respectable abilities, apparently. He liked being the best I've seen him jump on onto something as tall as he is with one step, during cleaning quarters in the morning. I couldn't believe it. He looked like a cat! He was 20s faster than me on the 1.5 mile run, hitting 7 min 55 seconds. I could stay with him in sprints though That always surprised him.

Oh griff! Speaking of milk, the secret ingredient: Harvard University Med School did a 5 year study on post workout drinks. Guess what came out #1...

1% CHOCOLATE MILK HAHAHAHAHA!

Also, the grail is working as hard as you possibly can, as heavy as you possibly can, and eating and resting as much as you can. There's not much to it. You want to leave pieces of yourself in the gym, and that's exactly what we did. I can honestly say that outside of BUD/S I trained the hardest with Andrew and Bryan. Full body workouts, 3 times a week. All compound lifts. Shoulder press, flat bench, incline bench, decline bench or weighted dips, bent over rows, pull ups(with weight if possible), shrugs, deadlifts, squats, leg press, back extensions. I nearly puked most workouts, and more than a few had me collapsed on the floor with wet towels on my face to make me feel better One thing we did use, which MASSIVELY helps recovery, was Vitargo. THAT shit is amazing. Post workout drink only.

Hell, I can still do back extensions with more than 150 lbs o0n a horizontal bench for reps I used to do them with 180 One of these days before Christmas I will go to a gym with a back extension bench and make a video.

Griff,

I re-read my initial response. What I meant was: Rippetoe et al are reporting anecdotal results from 30-plus years of strength and conditioning training, e.g. guys gaining 25 pounds in ~4 weeks, and yet it contradicts the medical establishment.

My point wasn't meant to be confrontational, for which I apologize. To rephrase it more clearly, given these two differing sets of information, what is one supposed to do in this case? Whom should one believe?

The poster's initial query was for methods of eating to take one to sub-10% BF. I would suggest that our friend's diet and exercise recommendations are ill-suited, for a host of reasons, to do so. However, I will definitely retract that sentiment in 90-days given "Ewalk's" before/after pictures and/or, for example, a Poliquin Bio-Sig report or something comparable.

best,

jason

I am loathe to drop the bodyfat that I have since I am getting into heavier lifting, but for the sake of proving the results, starting December 1st I will begin to practice what I preach, with no other fat burning efforts, as an attempt to show what 90 days looks like. I will take pictures on the Saturday of each week. Until then, it's all conjecture I will also shave my head and allow the hair to grow back naturally, to illustrate that these are not time lapses or some other digital trickery. The protocol will be: 1 hour of walking at a 15 degree incline 4-5 days per week. I WILL take a generic caffeine and green tea supplement, as caffeine is absolutely your friend when dropping bodyfat. All pictures will be with myself, the light sources, and the camera at the exact same position and zoom. At the end of February, the results will speak for themselves.

My girlfriend is going to be mad She likes me the way I am, she doesn't want to sleep with a brick lol! Ah well, I'll gain it back afterwards.

The past 2 weeks I put on 5 pounds. . . lol its no 40 but I am happy with it . . .and I am doing body weight only with only fatbar deadlifting 2x a week. No noticeable fat gain but my shirts fit a little different! I am keeping a sharp eye on the mirror and if I notice any body composition changes I am reducing my caloric intake a little and then keeping my eyes open! I dont know why I am so worried about my body composition as I try and gain, I know I can just cut the fat in 1-2 months anyways . . .

Good gains!

So far i THINK I'm pretty sure I've noticed a little bit of a difference in that my chest looks tighter and less flabby, same with my abs. And I'm pooping easier lol. random info. I'm assuming the olive oil helps with your poop. I will probably weight my self after thanksgiving like on Monday or so.

It does, any oil will act as a stool softener oil + fiber = good plumbing.

Drinking lots of whole milk keeps you regular. It's because of the fat, like taking in oil. Fat is a natural laxative. However, too much in one sitting generally will cause an immediate flush-out (like within 15m).

It's still a good idea to get fiber though because the fiber kinda bunches everything up in a neater package.

Fats, particularly those of the polyunsaturated variety, are eicasanoid modulators. Which play a role in excretion. Good eicasanoids, good digestion, bad eicasanoids, bad digestion.

Also, being that fats are responsible for cell/membrane fluidity and used as building blocks for certain things. Perhaps proper fat consumption helps with proper production of mucus in the intestines.

Hehehe What's "too much milk" in one sitting? I drink between .6 and 1.0 liters on a regular basis, or for us Americans, a little over half a quart to one quart at a time. MMMmmmm, milk!!! Of course, I have always been known for my iron stomach. I'm usually a terrible person for other people to judge themselves by in terms of what won't make them sick when they eat it

slizzardman, was your walking routine some kind of fasted cardio?

How many calories were you and your friends putting down while you were gaining muscle and losing fat?

TIA

JoeS said:

slizzardman, was your walking routine some kind of fasted cardio?

How many calories were you and your friends putting down while you were gaining muscle and losing fat?

TIA

We were all eating for our target weights, with activity levels factored in. I was eating... between 4500-5500 calories a day. Andrew was eating 3700-4200, and bryan was eating who knows how much. He ate bacon, usually a disgusting amount of gravy, and some other crap food every day in addition to the good food, which is why he didn't drop in bodyfat %. He was just eating too many calories lol!!! He did stay the same more or less, which means he added some.

I HATE fasted cardio with a passion. I mean, your cardio session will burn a bit more fat if you just have some protein and coffee and hop on the treadmill 15 minutes later for an hour to walk, but I am completely unwilling to do that, I hate how it feels.

Usually, we would work out, post workout shake and then eat, rest a little, and then walk for an hour, and then eat again. The whole point was to actively burn fat. Our 3 whole body workouts each week were taking care of raising our metabolisms during off hours already.

Edit: It is a misnomer to think that just because your body fat % is dropping that you are necessarily actually losing fat. Like for example, Andrew gained 2 lbs of bodyfat. He just gained so much MORE muscle that his fat % dropped. I actually did lose a few lbs of bodyfat, but I didn't gain as much muscle as the other guys either.

Too much milk in one sitting?

Probably a quart. However, I can put down a quart post workout easily and probably drink about a quart before, during, and after my workouts. So long as I just sip it from time to time, it works decently instead of a sports drink during workouts.

Actually one of my little guys can literally drink a quart during and after workout but it's too much. I'd like him for him to only polish off about a pint all told during and after at most.

How come you want him to drink less?

Robert,

Are you on the GOMAD plan? Wow.

best,

jason