Recovering from a herniated disc: a few question (long text)

I am in the process of recovering from and injury, and I have a couple of questions regarding it. I figured that this post fits best here since I have questions regarding foundation.

I am a 25 year old guy who works with a demanding physical work. In the middle of August 2015 I made a mistake during a heavy lift and hurt my back. Since we were at sea I could not get any medical help (During the summer I usually work on sailing ships). My back hurt when I lifted stuff and when I leaned forward (pike my body). I had to continue work since we were still at sea, and tried to do as little hard work as I could. Three weeks later when we got to port, I visited a Chiropractor that I had been recommended by a friend.

From here on it is a long journey of trips back and forth to the Chiropractor, doctors and physiotherapists. I gravely underestimated my injury, which resulted in that doctors and physiotherapists also underestimated my injury.

After 6 months I got a MRI and it show that I have a herniated disc at L5, S1.

From September until mid-February I could not sit down or bend forward (pike) at all since it caused a beaming pain to shoot down my left leg (Sciatica). I could stand up and lie down without pain thought. I started visiting another Chiropractor in December 2015. After a while things started to get better and by the end of February the shooting pain (Sciatica) in my left lag was gone.

Unfortunately it was like the Sciatica was replaced with a pain higher up, in the spine, (still in the lumbar spine, perhaps just above it sometimes) that shows up when I bend forward (pike), bend about 45degrees to the left and backwards and when I move my knees towards the chest in any way. The pain also shows up in other positions but usually only for and instant second or so then it is gone.

This pain is very much different from the Sciatica pain, this does not hurt so much and it feels more like it is the actual bones (or other discs) in the spine that is hurting, it almost feels like thy reach some sort of stop position, like a bone to bone thingy.

Both my Doctor and physiotherapist tell me that my herniated disc has probably healed and the pain I am experiencing is because I am stiff in my spine and I need to “work” it out. They want me to do a lot of McKenzie back bending exercises, 10r at least 4 times a day, preferably every other hour. I do not go to the physiotherapist anymore because she tells me that all I need to do is this exercise at least 4 times a day and I will be fine, I should only come  back if it get worse. Some people (not doctors) say that I am fully healed already now, but do not consider myself fully healed until I am completely pain free.

Of course I do the exercises as I should, and over the past 1,5 months of doing it I have seen a small improvement, however there are a few thing that bother me. The attitude I receive from my doctor, physiotherapist and many people in general is: I should be glad that I have healed but I might have lost the ability to do some stuff (piking, bringing knees towards the chest ect..) but then I should simply not do those stuff ever again.

I usually get this in hints for example: “oh so you can’t do a pike without pain, but don’t do it then, you can probably exercise in other ways. Of course I understand that I can’t do it now when it hurts, but I want to be able to do it pain fee later on. A lot of people just seem to think that I should accept that I can’t do it ever again, even though no doctor or physiotherapist has expressively said that I will not be able to fully recover, however they have sometime hinted that might not do so.

I am just wondering if anyone have heard of this kind of back stiffness? And do your believe that one can fully recover from it?

When I was in my early 20s I started doing parkour and street workout, I really liked it and I tried to learn as much as a possible. When I was 23 I started to train for doing a handstand, I really wanted to learn it. My parkour buddies taught handstand in the true parkour fashion of “try it until you can do it” style and told me all I needed to do was to train a lot, and so I did, but I never seemed to be able to do it, so I trained even more (I was not prepared nor mobile enough but I did not know it then). Then I got injured, overstrained wrists. Eventually I recovered from it, but then I tried to find out if I was doing something wrong since I got injured.

It was now April 2015 and I found the Gymnastic bodies site, this seemed like the correct path to take. I bought handstand one and foundation one. It finally seemed like I was on the path to actually do things the right way, then I had my back injury.

Right now I can only train very little, I train 2 times each week. Since September I have barely progressed in any of the F7 and handstand elements, I have tried but never really made it good since pain is holding me back in so many elements, so I decided to only train PE1 on all the exercises I could do.

I can’t the FL PE1 or any other exercise where I bring knees closer to the chest, so am doing a basic elbow plank together with the PE1im.

I do the SPL PE1 and im

I do SL PE3 and im (this is the only element I have been able to progress in)

I don’t do any mana exercise since I can’t do them without pain

I do basic bodyweight squats with the SLS PE1im, those are the ones I can do pain free

I do HBP PE2 and im

I do normal hanging pullups and PE1im since I can’t do the RC PE1 without back pain.

On my second training day I do wrist stretches, wrist prep, HS PE2 and im, I can’t progress though since trying to get up in the PE3 position is too painful, but not PE2 strangely enough.

I stopped toing the stretch series in September since it would cause too much pain, I feel stuffer than ever now though. I can barely reach my knees if I pike, I feel like a rusty hinge that has gotten frozen at the top position.

I know that the elbow plank is an exercise further on in the SPL series and the same goes for pullups in the RC progressions, but they do not cause any pain, and I figure that it is better to do something rather than nothing. Do you think that is stupid? Should I instead quit doing them until I can do the PE1s?

I have been doing these same exercises for months now, and it almost feels like my body has adapted to not progressing, I do not think that is such a big problem though, If I heal fully I can fix it.

You should know that most people see seem me as a healthy person, even if this text tells the opposite. Perhaps because I am young and always have a lot of energy and when I am at work I can do everything as normal except for heavy lifting and different types of bending. I think this has also contributed to my injury not being taken as serious, at least initially, by doctors and physiotherapists, thus making everything take longer.

Last question: I have been thinking about going to the seminar in Stroud, but it is a big risk to apply since I do not know if I will be completely healthy by then. I feel like I am answering my own question and the answers should be No! since I am not fully healed. Do you think it would be stupid of me to apply for the Stroud level 1 seminar? I might have recovered by then.

You have to excuse my text if it is a bit long and confusing, I am from Sweden and English is not my mother tongue. I am sitting home alone and feeling a bit depressed over my situation and I felt like I needed to get some sort of response, I have been thinking about writing this for a long time but have not been able to decide if I should do it or not.

A repetition of the questions (you probably still need to read the text though)

Has anyone of you heard of this kind of back stiffness? And do your believe that one can fully recover from it?

Is it stupid of me to do the Elbow plank and normal pullups instead of the PE1, Should I quit doing them until I can do the PE1s?

Would it be too much wishful thinking of me if I apply to the Stroud seminar?

Thanks for reading

Hi Johan, 

I like your "long text" warning. I never think about what attracts me to reply to a post and not another. Must be something about the person's character or views. When I start typing, I never know what's going to happen when a stream of consciousness kicks in. I have written some pretty long posts myself. 

I know it's hard to post about your pain when you feel somewhat down, glad you did though. Pain is an incredible teacher and motivator. I help us search. Deeper. Without it, I don't think I would've traveled so far nor accomplished as much. Listen carefully to your pain as it will always show you a better way. You're asking the right questions and should never accept answers that smell fishy as the final word. Your intuition has been right all along. Good job on not giving up. 

As a non-native speaker myself, I sympathize about your English and hesitation. I also have a L5-S1 herniated disk and pretty stiff lower back, so we have at least 3 things in common! I'm sorry that the professional help you received wasn't that helpful or encouraging. Been there many times and eventually it organically drove me to become a professional in this field. I can tell you that you're going to feel better and you can conquer this with proper guidance and doing the work as directed. Part of it has to do with strengthening your back and creating more structural integrity – building a more resilient body that can move well and handle the stresses from your physical job. 

I'm going to try to answer some of your questions, without writing my own novel. I hope others can pitch in as well.

"They want me to do a lot of McKenzie back bending exercises, 10r at least 4 times a day, preferably every other hour."
That a good start, but the coaches here will be able to guide you beyond this.

"I should be glad that I have healed but I might have lost the ability to do some stuff (piking, bringing knees towards the chest ect..) but then I should simply not do those stuff ever again."
Not true. Your intuition is right. You can teach your body to learn/relearn new or old movement skills.

"I should accept that I can’t do it ever again, even though no doctor or physiotherapist has expressively said that I will not be able to fully recover, however they have sometime hinted that might not do so."

Not necessarily. You have to explore what can be done with a good rehab and movement strategy/plan, and/or other healing modalities.

"I am just wondering if anyone have heard of this kind of back stiffness? And do your believe that one can fully recover from it?"
Yes and yes! Millions of people including me. It's a work in progress.
 

"It was now April 2015 and I found the Gymnastic bodies site, this seemed like the correct path to take."
True.

"I do normal hanging pullups and PE1im since I can’t do the RC PE1 without back pain."

I wouldn't recommend advancing to more "advanced" elements until you master the previous ones. Remember, that’s how you got injured in the first place. Doing thing your body was not prepared for…

"I know that the elbow plank is an exercise further on in the SPL series and the same goes for pullups in the RC progressions, but they do not cause any pain, and I figure that it is better to do something rather than nothing. Do you think that is stupid? Should I instead quit doing them until I can do the PE1s?"

It's not better to do something, if that "something" can cause another problem, right? Does the sPLPE1 (scapular shrugs) give you pain? Maybe you can modify them with a neutral spine (slightly arched lower back) or do them from your knees. Again, the coaches here can provide more guidance.

"Perhaps because I am young and always have a lot of energy and when I am at work I can do everything as normal except for heavy lifting and different types of bending. I think this has also contributed to my injury not being taken as serious, at least initially, by doctors and physiotherapists, thus making everything take longer."

Most likely true. Since most doctors see people who are so sick and screwed up, you're probably in great shape in their eyes... I think we've all been there at one point or another.

"Do you think it would be stupid of me to apply for the Stroud level 1 seminar? I might have recovered by then."

I'd go even if I had a broken leg! It would be a smart move. GO! Working with the GB coach/es in person, who can see how you move is probably one of the best investments you can make. There's a LOT to learn even from just listening and watching! Always.

"Has anyone of you heard of this kind of back stiffness? And do your believe that one can fully recover from it?"

Yes and yes.

"Is it stupid of me to do the Elbow plank and normal pullups instead of the PE1, Should I quit doing them until I can do the PE1s?"

Not productive to start the house from the roof down. 

Peace,
E

Pain is not always an accurate indicator of underlying tissue damage and consequently not always the best guide to knowing you are fully recovered. You still need to listen to pain, but there are time when we can be too focused on it, which will lead to a poor recovery.

You are still in the early stages of recovery for a disc bulge so bear in mind you will get alot better than you are today. You have been fortunate to discover Foundation which will greatly help your rehab.

I would recommend you start to post videos of your form so you can recieve feedback. You may be experiencing pain because your form is terrible. Alternatively your form may be good and you just need to spend more time waiting for the body to adapt.

I do not like the approach of McKenzie extensions all the time with no flexion exercises. I have never found this to be a good long term outcome for any of my disc patients.

Try not be too discouraged as there are plenty of people here that can help. 

Hi, Johan

1,5 years ago I had confirmed bulging disc between L4/L5 And L5/S1. Even now I quite often suffer from alot of lower back pain and I am generally quite stiff. I know your pain. I feel moving and training has been the best medicine though. I have advanced quite alot in F1, H1 and stretch modules, as I have used time to slowly adapt and overcome. I think the only solution is to be patient and take it as slow as you need too, and keep it as painfree as possible during training and day-life in general. Over time it will get better. That's how I think about it. 

And regarding Stroud; I attended last summer, and I am also attending this summer. I think you will regret it more if you don't attend. First hand ques/training with coach and the team is gold. If you have the time and money, you should come.

Best of luck!

i'll give my 2 cents L3/L4 , L4/L5 , L5/S1 bulged, degenerated, discal protusion etc....

From what i've read you like to be in the early phases of recuperation, when i was in this phase there were days i couldn't walk fast, driving was painfull, and each time i coughed it was like a blade stabing in my lower back. 

You just need to pass through this phase (phisiotherapy, stretching), it was needed about 1 year to my recovery which is not complete yet, i would say like 90%.

The thing that most helped me was:

lay down in your back and Stretch each one of your hamstrings using a band, how many sets u want of 30 sec - 45 sec. This may look stupid, but when i was in pain and i did 2,3 sets of this the pain stoped. You can also hang in a pull up bar for as long as you can, like this you can gain some grip strength also

Really, try to stretch your posterior chain, it may help

1)I can do the MN PE1 Without any problem now, However the IM i can't bend as much as the athlete, i can't barely bend in the video so i think i'm going to stay in this progression like forever, any tips here guys? 

2) The FL PE1 i can't force so much, i just get my head, legs, shoulder from the ground, and i try to let all my lower back in the ground, but if i bend too much i can feel pain, but it's working! The IM of this one may help you when u are feeling less pain, i've gained some flexibility un the spine because of this one

3) SL IM1 et IM2 i've fear of doing too much, if i push it may hurts

Etc

Wow, thank you for all the response. 

Eva, thank you for your long post. Espen, César, thank you for your posts, I hope all of you will be able to overcome your back problems and come out stronger than ever.  

I am convinced now, I will apply for the Stroud seminar.

Mark, thank you for your answers as well. It is interesting what you tell me about the Mckenzie back bending exercise. What other methods can be used? perhaps it is stupid question since it is impossible for you to know the extent of my injury over the internet. Would you suggest that I try to find another physiotherapist or perhaps a chiropractor? to get another point of view.

Eva, you asked if I have pain doing scapular shrugs? no I do not and I do them every week, it is my hip mobility on the im that keeps me from progressing in this element.

The reason I am doing the elbow plank is (I know that is is SPL PE2) that my physiotherapist told me to do it instead of doing the FL PE1. It all began when my physiotherapist told me that I need to strengthen my core in order to avoid injuring myself again. I told her that I am already doing that with the FL PE1 exercise. She then said that I should avoid doing exercises that involve leaning forward or bringing knees closer to the chest and she told me to do the elbow plank instead. I tried to tell her about foundation, gymnasticbodies and that the elbow plank is a higher progression in another element (SPL instead of FL) but she id not really understand me and told me that it is nothing to worry about.

The same goes for pullups, and that is why I have been doing them instead of hinge rows.

This leaves me in sort of confused state and I don't really know what to do about the pullups and elbow planks. I am willing to give the bent hollow body hold, hinge rows and the mana (I have not done mana exercises since September 2015) excercises a go and post a form check on those. I have not done them in a while now and I do not know if they still cause pain.

Would you suggest me to try them out and post a form check?

Thank you again for the response and take care!

I would try another physio who treats athletes. What country do you live in?

Sweden

I have heard there are some good physio's in Sweden. When you find the right one who can work with your goals your improvement will accelerate.

I will look for Physio's who work with athletes. thank you!

Glad to hear you’re applying to Stroud. You won't regret it. 

I wouldn’t’ worry about the elbow plank. It’s good for you, but it’s all about in HOW you do it in order to get the most benefit. First post your Scapular Shrugs video so we can see your form. 

Have you tried sPL/PE this way:

The key for the Swivel Hips is to insure you maintain APT (anterior pelvic tilt) during the entire exercise. At first, you can lean back your torso slightly with your arms posted behind you, making sure you maintain your lumbar curve. 

You most likely need to do the Swivel Hips sitting on a wedge or elevated on a firm pillow/thick mat, making sure your lower back doesn’t round (flex) = No slouching! Fixate your pelvis by sitting with your hips tilted forward and focus on isolating the rotation at your femur (thigh bone) without taking the hips with the femur for a ride. 

Regarding the bent hollow body hold, you may need to wait a little for that one. But there modifications you could follow here as well.

I would wait on the pull ups. I read in the forum that someone was doing hinge rows with bent knees, which will help you in freeing up your hamstrings. 

Again, once the coaches see your form in videos, they will be able to give you more targeted advice. Cheers.

After a back injury deadlifting some time ago, I found out that daily hanging from a bar helped a lot. Also discovered that a glute ham developer worked even better. Stretched out over it prone and arms hanging, touching the floor, working on relaxing and stretching my lower back, something about having your feet anchored and your upper body stretched out over the pads really opens everything up. I'd feel huge decompression and even small, painless pops as if the vertebrae were opening up. Lots of deep breathing and relaxing into the stretch, then carefully coming off of the GHD, my back felt like a million bucks after just a few minutes. 

Thanks for your response Christopher , I hope you realize that this post is over 15 months old thought. 

I am glad that hanging from a bar and and that the stretch you describe helped you. I hope you are fully recovered by this time, back injuries are really frustrating and not fun to deal with. Theses days I hang a lot from a bar and it feels great in my back. At the time of the original post I was very careful with what I did and I did not do a lot of stretching since my physio at the time did not recommend it, I would have loved to try your stretch thought.

Since I am writhing here now I might as well write a little update on how things went with my back. 

When I wrote the original post I was very frustrated because I was told by the doctor that I was fully recovered and I just needed to "work out" my stiffness in my back. My physio had me doing 1 exercise only witch was a gentle seal stretch and I was supposed to do it a few times per day. This did not seem to have any effect and even thought the doctor said I was recovered, I had a long list of stuff from the physio that she did not recommend me doing.

I changed to another physio who specialized in back issues, then things started getting better and I slowly could start doing foundation work and add the stretch series. I still struggled with having a very stiff spine and doing Jefferson curls felt very odd, I was so stiff that I could just get a few inches below my knees. After a few weeks of doing JC I decided that this did not feel right and I stopped doing them.

I went to the seminar in Stroud UK 2016, it was awesome and I learned a lot. However I felt like 2 days was not enough, I had a million more questions I wanted to ask. I knew that I wanted to come back and I had this idea that if I had some time off I would come back to Stroud and stay there for a longer time.

I November my job got bankrupt and I found myself with nothing to do so I bought a plane ticket to the UK to stay there and train. I knew that @Wesley Tan (the founder of the UK affiliate Forma in Stroud) is an Osteopath and also GB trainer, "great then I can finally get some help from someone who also knows about movement" I thought. Just before I came to UK I still had a very stiff spine and started to question if I would ever get better, therefore I really felt that I had to try and go to UK.

I received treatment from Wesly and I went to the classes at Forma. At first it was a bit of a shock to my body since I was very stiff and I was not used to training so hard but I took it easy when I felt it was too much and it slowly started getting better. After about 4 weeks I started having spans of several days when the stiffness in my back was completely gone. I got myself a job so I could support myself and thus stay longer.

I ended up staying 4 months and by the end of it all the stiffness in my back was gone. We did so much more movement than I was used to, in the warm ups, throughout training and even in stretching. My body seemed to thrive on all the movement in contrast to what I was told by all the physios back home. I had a few episodes where my back got worse but it quickly got better again. Wesley taught me to look more on the big picture, see what I could physically do, see that over a longer period of time everything got steadily better and to not get caught up with a bad period of just a few days.

A huge thanks to Wesley and the Forma gang for all they taught me, going there was one of the best things I have done, ever.

To this day my back feels very good and I do not seem to have any issues. I now consider myself to be fully recovered and my back does not hinder my training. I am still not very flexible and I have a long way to go until I am considered flexible and to have my normal human mobility but it is very nice to just be able to train and not have to worry about my back.

I have been doing JC for about 2 months now and they feel great, I have also been able to reach to floor in a pike fold for the first time in my entire life. I really get the feeling that JC are great if you are healthy enough to do them without discomfort but if it feels wrong, just don't bother with it for now, once your body is ready for them you will feel it when you try.

Long post again, I better wrap it up

Johan

great update Johan, thank you, it is inspiring to see how far you have come (just saw your sl/pe4 arch up form check!). J

A really cool update, very inspirational!

Hey Johan, 

I ve been searching the forum for topics regarding herniated disc and recovery and found your post.

Glad to hear you ve gotten better. How is everything niw, years later? 

Do you have done recommendations which exercises helped the most and what made it worse? 

Thanks!

Bas

Hi Bas, 

i am not johan but might still give u some advice. I got a pretty bad disc prolapse (1cm) on L5 S1 myself for years now.

I think you cant tell generally what makes it better or worse. What works for some wont work for others. 

Just listen to your body. Ifit causes pain, stop it. if you feel better after doing it, go for it.

For me backbends (bridge) are really helpful while forward-bends (pike) can be painfull / cause damage. Nevertheless, most of the year i am able to do forward bends without restrictions and pain just fine.

Johan mentioned McKenzie, which helped me quite a lot as well (an is mostly backbends).

To sum it up, i got a prolapse probably due to skoliosis and can still work out just fine with it.  Of course some elements might be a bit harder to train regularly (eg those damn jefferson curls…)

Hi and thanks for your take on it.
Thing is, I'm confused to what helps and what makes it worse.
Worst is still getting up in the morning! So maybe I should stop that?! ;)
Doing Jefferson curls w/o weights first thing in the morning seems to do a lot of good! I've avoided those for a while due to the pain and thinking it will put too much pressure on the lumbar discs. But recently I tried again and found I get a huge relief from it - as long as I keep pushing the hips forward! 
My main issue seems to be extreme tightness in the psoas, piriformis and hip flexors. I guess that's how I wore down that L5 to a sliver of a  disc.
At times it feels great to do arch ups and at other times it seems to make everything way worse.
Same with weighted side bends or V-ups. I've been keeping those exercises up for a few years now. While making some progress I keep having to go a few steps back due to injuries and aches. I've been dealing with some kind of rheumatoid arthritis for a few years and gains are slow compared to my younger days.