Pro+ Pace on MN/PE2

I just completed my MN/PE2 exercise along with Pro+, and the pace is much faster than I'm used to. I find my form starts to falter immediately (ie, not getting as full ROM as I normally do, losing balance) trying to keep up with the pace. I can do the 4x12r, but my form is significantly better when I go at the slower pace I am used to.

What do I do in this circumstance? As Coach said, we're supposed to follow along rep for rep, so if I go slower and more controlled, I won't be doing that...

Will I just adapt to the faster pace over the coming weeks? Or am I just practicing bad form?

Maybe drop a block so there are fewer reps? If not, i would count the exercise as failed if you stay with that block.

Its not so much the number of reps but the pace I'm having trouble with. It's not like I'm getting tired and losing form... It's the loss of form due to the increased pace.  

The reality for me with MN/PE2 is, I can't even do 1 rep with gold standard ROM, no matter what pace. If I count every set without proper ROM as a fail, I won't progress at all. My reasoning is, I might as well progress with my endurance while my ROM improves over time. 

That said, there's a clear difference in my control and ROM when I go slow vs fast. ROM and control are better when I go slow. 

Do the reps a pace you can with good control and form. Cory mentioned that there is no 'official' GB tempo. 

3 hours ago, Cole Dano said:

Do the reps a pace you can with good control and form. Cory mentioned that there is no 'official' GB tempo. 

 

This is incorrect.  The entire purpose of GB Pro+ is for you to follow along rep for rep.

These will count as failed workouts for you until you correct the deficiency.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Cameron, have you received Pro+ Tip for Week 5? There's a key solution to your MN/PE2 woes in that email. If you cant maintain the pace, just do your best to keep up and if isn't on the same level then mark it as failed. Similarly, not hitting the ROM also seems to count as failed. It's tough, but try to push to keep up--BUT don't force it! I did that with SLS/PE3>im and my piriformis hasn't let me forget it. Just stay on what with you're doing but don't progress until you can handle the pace, with the same ROM and comparable form. It's a lot to measure up to but you'll know when you're close. My pushup form increased quickly as a result of this; my straddle ups are coming along but I only received Pro+ tip 5 last week so it'll take me a bit. So as to not release guarded info, you could likely ask Coach or Cory in PM for that tip if you'd rather not wait.

Thanks everyone for your input.

Are the lower-rep workouts at a slower pace?

Daniel - thanks for the tip... I did see that email from Cory and have been using it regularly since I read it

I see.... well I'm confused then.

Because my form is sub-par (compared to my best) at the Pro+ pace, pretty much right from the get-go.

As I said above, it's not like I'm getting tired and losing form... It's that I feel like I'm rushing and my form feels sloppy right from the start.

At the slower pace that I am accustomed to, I can get 4x12r, only really breaking down form-wise on the last few reps of the last set.

So my question is still this: do I follow along with the Pro+ pace as best I can, and my form will improve over time as I get used to the faster pace? Or should I stay at the slower pace I am accustomed to so that I'm practicing better form? (this would also mean not following along with Pro+)...

On March 19, 2016 at 8:15 AM, Zach Armijo said:

Coach, I think Cole was commenting more along the lines of not compromising form for the sake of tempo and reps. That is also to bring to light that the student following along with Pro + should be utilizing a rep range to which they can match the tempo and rep goal correct? 

I think most students will find they will have to drop a week or two to match the Pro + tempo, reps, and form.  

 

Correct me if I'm wrong Coach,  as well as Cole if I misinterpreted your post.  

Perfect form and technical execution should have led to being able to either keep up with the GB Pro+ tempo or scale appropriately.  However not being able to complete a single rep highlights a serious deficiency in physical preparation.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

So I should go back to PE1? 

17 minutes ago, Cameron Williams said:

So I should go back to PE1? 

Yep.

And this is not a bad thing.  It fact it is very good.  

Case in point:  one of my students Leo Trinidad has made fantastic progress in only 18 months.  Huge increases in overall strength, mobility and muscle mass.  And all of it with F1.

His secret?  

Everytime he gets consistently stuck on a PE, he goes back to PE1 and starts over again.  Sometimes he begins with week 11 mastery for PE1 and sometimes he goes all the way back to week 1.  It depends upon how advanced he is on a particular PE and how much he was struggling.  

For example, if PE2 failed, than drop all the way back to PE1 week 1.  If PE6 failed, than more appropriate to drop back to PE1 week 11, PE2 week 11, PE3 week 11, PE4 week 11 and then PE5 week 1.

Don't get too caught up in minutae however.  The important lesson here is to start over and look for holes in preparation/mobility that need to be corrected.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

6 minutes ago, Coach Sommer said:

Yep.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I, too, am having trouble getting the ROM on MN/PE2. PE1 is easy for me however, as is the im, which I'm now using with 15lbs. I can't perform the ROM, but the pace isn't the issue. Would going back to PE1 help with this? Because I find straddling and the hip extension most limiting for me (which is why Pro+ Tip #5 is so helpful). Similarly, PE2>im provides great increase in ROM for me, while PE1>im really just warms me up. I'll likely stay with PE2>im though I've been on Block 1 for axwhile. Am hoping that Pro+ and its tips will cure that. They seem to be curing it, but impatience and a desire to paralyze myself by overanalysis always seems to present itself as a logical solution in my head.

Repeating PE2 over and over is simply the equivalent of beating a dead horse.  

At the same time you drop back to PE1, also add additional MN mobility work to increase ROM.

MS stretch series should also be a priority for improving PE2 mobility.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I just filmed a couple of sets at two different paces. My first MN/PE2 Pro+ workout was on Friday, and I already found myself to have better balance and control. Anyways, here are the two sets at different speeds:

The two sets feel much closer in quality than the Pro+ sets I did on Friday. 

Is this acceptable form and pace to continue working on PE2?

If not, I have no problem going back to PE1.

Note - I've been doing middle split religiously for over a year.

Thanks everyone again for your input,

Cam

This is just my opinion, but I think your fast reps look good. Maybe if you go at the faster pace, but going back a few steps is appropriate. Of course keep working middle split stretches as this is a book with many pages to write.

Thanks Christian for your input

Indeed it might be helpful to go back a step or two, as has been suggested a few times above.

I just read Coach's post above about Leo Trinidad (I somehow missed it before posting last time)... It also seems like just going back to PE1 might not be such a bad thing either. Leo's change is super impressive!

To me, this whole experience just highlights the fundamentals of Coach's training philosophy.. do it right each and every time, and if you don't get it right, don't move on. I'm wondering if I moved on from PE1 too quickly in the beginning, and that has been to some extent the cause of my stuckness at PE2.

This sure is a lesson in how to train correctly and effectively

Coach and Zach have given me a lot to ruminate on. Given that FL/PE2, MN/PE2, SLS/PE3 and RC/PE2 have proven difficult for quite some time. I may give earlier progressions a proper revision in the next block using the Pro+ follow-along videos as a guide for tempo and form, just to see if any kinks in the chain do exist and are the cause for stalled progress. Do either of you suggest any specific way of going about it when revisiting these 'mastered' earlier elements when trying to shore up imbalances? Or simply to do the PE and >im at mastery (week 11) and at the pace of those Pro+ videos, and then move on afterwards, if mastered of course. @Coach Sommer @Zach Armijo

Curious about that too. What I think I'll do is to drop back to PE1 on an element and use the "test mastery" option. I will then log only the number of reps with correct form that I will do in the amount of time of the video. From then, the system should take over and bring me to the right level in a couple of workouts.

If somebody from GB has better tips, I'm all ears.

By the way, the test mastery feature and videos are a powerfully tool. For example, without GBpro+ I would have gone from SLS/PE1 to SLS/PE2 this week, but in reality I could not keep up with Orench the the gang in the last set so I ended up with a 4x15+1x12. Looks like I'm staying in PE1 a little more and I'm pretty happy about it, because now I have a good reference on readiness.

When I was on MN/PE6, there were days where I just couldn't handle all them negatives, so I would just do mastery of tuck-ups in one go. Felt pretty good afterwards. Similarly, I warm up SLS with 50 reps of Cossacks. It's pretty cool when you start having that kind of volume and I can't wait to get it for other elements.

3 hours ago, Zach Armijo said:

Daniel,

Again, this would vary, but you would want to...in my opinion only, want to make the previous PEs your bit*h.

Off the top of my head I would want to start applying different Mastery templates to the ones below. 15 tuck ups? Are you serious? Make it 30. Good from there. Start to add a bent straddle tuck up, and see where your numbers lie.

More importantly though, I would not only solidify your previous Foundations(what you consider your basics) and expanding on them. Punishment for losing a handstand walk at Coach's seminar: 50 V ups for every athlete to fail each time they didn't make the distance. Many fell that day... 

You have your Foundations. Now it's time to let it settle into concrete.

Yeah, I decided to swallow my pride and I set MN, RC, and FL back to PE1, and SLS back to PE2 and to 'test mastery'. From there I will gauge where I'm at and work at micro-progressions (straddle tuck ups, etc). I will also use some of the Pro+ tips concurrently, namely that for MN/PE2 and for breaking plateaus with FL to help get over these humps. HBP/PE1 is already my b--- as you state (because I mean...they're incline pushups) and SL/PE1 and PE2 have become steadily easier to do at leisure as a result of the plateau breaking routine from Pro+ (such that I would also consider them my B...).

Similarly, I've realized that my mid/upper trap strength has been what's hindering my HS progress (on PE1) and I am including a LYTIP circuit that I do in a yoga child's pose to correct that, along with stretches for overhead flexion (supine wall extensions, RC/PE2>im, twist holds). I'm hoping that this will be the year I make leaps and bounds as have other students (like Leo, for example). It's taken a while to figure out how one's body is supposed to move and which muscles are supposed to be engaged to do what exercise, but also to keep my ego in check and train intelligently (i.e. listening to those cracks, pops, and so on); understanding that PE1 by no means designates someone a 'beginner'.

8 hours ago, Daniel Taylor-Shaut said:

Similarly, I've realized that my mid/upper trap strength has been what's hindering my HS progress (on PE1) and I am including a LYTIP circuit that I do in a yoga child's pose to correct that, along with stretches for overhead flexion (supine wall extensions, RC/PE2>im, twist holds). I'm hoping that this will be the year I make leaps and bounds as have other students (like Leo, for example). It's taken a while to figure out how one's body is supposed to move and which muscles are supposed to be engaged to do what exercise, but also to keep my ego in check and train intelligently (i.e. listening to those cracks, pops, and so on); understanding that PE1 by no means designates someone a 'beginner'.

Nicely said. Would you mind explaining the LYTIP circuit to me a little more? I think I have an idea but could be completely off.

While face down on an incline bench, swiss ball, etc, make those patterns with your arms:

- L: from arms straight pull the elbows back and in line with the shoulders to retract the scapulae and create a bend in the arms of 90 degrees at the elbow, then twist up to externally rotate the arms (arms looks like an L)

- Y: arms locked and straight bring them straight up as far overhead at a 45 degree angle to your torso (body looks like a Y)

- T: arms locked and straight bring them straight out to the side retracting the scapula (body looks like a T)

- I: arms locked and straight pull them as far back behind you in shoulder extension (body looks like an I)

- P: with palms touching in front of your chest in a prayer pose externally rotate your shoulders so that each palm then faces outward. Don't change the angle of the arm.

Go as high as your strength and ROM will allow with each position. Eventually, the ROM and strength should increase, though doing them from a position of deficit (like in child's pose where no other muscles but the traps and shoulders are engaged) is very, very difficult at first.

Got it, thank you very much! L and P had confused me

Well, dialing it back was humbling. SLS/PE1 pace with Pro+ whooped me, and my ROM on SL/PE1>im and MN/PE1>im was, too. Guess that's telling. Minor fixes but it gives me things to work on. Gonna apply your tips @Zach Armijo regarding how to scale progressions up prior to advancing to PE2, but this all good in the long-term. My hips are also quite tight, SLS/PE1>im and SL/PE1>im made this clear. SLS/PE3>im had been my stumbling block for a while and I think that this is the reason why. We'll see what a few weeks work does to remedy this.