Elbow external rotation(turn out) question

Hello,

I have seen several videos or posts talking about elbow external rotation when we do straight arm exercise or some kinds of excercises that involves keeping the elbow stragiht.

Do we actually need this?

If so, what is this good for?

For example,

- planche lean

- dips at the top(or throughout the movement)

- push up at the top(or throughout the movement)

- handstand

- L sit

When we do these, do we have to externally rotate the elbows? Or is it kinda optional?

Thank you.

Elbow external rotation is necessary. You really must externally rotate your elbow

if you don't your joints and tendons will be weak for move like planche and iron cross. When the 

time comes .   

Nope.  Not really something to worry about.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

21 hours ago, Coach Sommer said:

Nope.  Not really something to worry about.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Thanks for your comment, Coach Sommer.

Just to make myself clear,

do you mean I don't have to do this external rotation at all?

I have seen people doing it on the ring every time,

then is it neccessary only on the ring?

Yes, this is ring strength specific.  Turning the rings past parallel (external rotation) is performed on the rings to activate the brachialis which strengthens and supports the elbow.

Ring strength however is far down the road.  

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

On ‎2016‎년 ‎3‎월 ‎8‎일 at 11:36 PM, Coach Sommer said:

Yes, this is ring strength specific.  Turning the rings past parallel (external rotation) is performed on the rings to activate the brachialis which strengthens and supports the elbow.

Ring strength however is far down the road.  

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer,

Sorry for bothering you with this comment relay.

I just ran into this video mentioning the same thing as my question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aObbkMV5GM

at 0:45 of this video, the man says the external rotation is essential to completely lockout the elbow.

Just to make my question clear,

The first picture is doing what I meant by 'external rotation',

and the second picture is not doing the external rotation.

(I got those pictures on the internet)

Sir, I know I am asking the same question over and over again,

but as a beginner, I really want to arrange all the knowledges, and follow the right path.

Do I still do not have to worry about this external rotation until I get to work on the rings?

I really appriciate your comment.

Thank you Coach Sommer.

- Orench is incorrect to mention that in the video.

- Placing such importance on external rotation for basic skills is simply beginners making a mountain out of a molehill.  In all of my years as a US National Team Coach, I never taught it for basics nor did we ever discuss it as a national staff.  

- Bottom line, just straighten the elbows and move on.  There is no need to overly complicate such a simple concept.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

 kl

10 hours ago, Coach Sommer said:

- Orench is incorrect to mention that in the video.

- Placing such importance on external rotation for basic skills is simply beginners making a mountain out of a molehill.  In all of my years as a US National Team Coach, I never taught it for basics nor did we ever discuss it as a national staff.  

- Bottom line, just straighten the elbows and move on.  There is no need to overly complicate such a simple concept.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Thank you again Coach Sommer.

Now I am completely clear, and understand what you meant.

I really think that I have been so obsessed with such a minor thing.

Thank you.

Have a great day!

On 3/10/2016 at 8:47 PM, Coach Sommer said:

- Orench is incorrect to mention that in the video.

- Placing such importance on external rotation for basic skills is simply beginners making a mountain out of a molehill.  In all of my years as a US National Team Coach, I never taught it for basics nor did we ever discuss it as a national staff.  

- Bottom line, just straighten the elbows and move on.  There is no need to overly complicate such a simple concept.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach?  

As it possible that gymnasts are inadvertently taught to externally rotate the upper arm, when needed, through the physical strength training?

I am asking because there are several foundation and handstand exercises that require the upper arm to be in external rotation to build enough strength to master the specific element. (IE:RC/PE6, or FL/PE13) I, personally, have just recently strengthened my external, shoulder, rotator cuff muscles enough that my upper arm happens to externally rotate as I extend my arm. Plus an individual with weak external, shoulder, rotator cuff muscles their arm either neutrally rotates or internally rotates as the arm is extended. As an example, competitive swimmer are inadvertantly taught to internally rotate their upper arm as they swim laps. In swimming internal shoulder rotation allows a swimmer to reach slightly further across the water and deeper in the water than when the same arm is externally rotated? 

I understand and appreciate that you guys are really trying to be thorough here.

However there is no benefit in over thinking simple basics.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach, sorry for keeping this topic alive, but since I have been doing this automatically for some time, would it be a mistake to continue this practice?

If it is not necessary, why would you waste time doing it?

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

4 minutes ago, Coach Sommer said:

If it is not necessary, why would you waste time doing it?

Hello Coach,

I share the same curiosity as Alexander, because in circus school I have been taught to externally rotate as much as possible, in every skill. I believe the root of the question is:

is it just unnecessary, or is it actively counterproductive in some way?

I personally believe it's the former (and my body does it on its own without me having to ask him anyway), but one can never be too sure, and you obviously have so much more experience than us.

8 hours ago, Coach Sommer said:

If it is not necessary, why would you waste time doing it?

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I really not consider it as a waste of time, since the external rotation is effort less. Like the above poster said - is it in any way counter-productive? Is there any reason I should discontinue this although it is easy to me?

I understand the fact that our upper arms do not need to be rotated in a particular fashion to straighten the arm and lock the elbow.

However I think there is a lot of misunderstanding on whether externally rotation is needed for gymnastic strength moves and/or elements in general. If it is needed one may need to consciously externally rotate their upper arm to develop the needed tendon and muscular strength to master a particular strength element.  

Gentlemen,

I literally do not care in the slightest.  I also do not care whether you tie your shoes with loop and swoop or another technique.

You have too much energy if you are wasting it on this.  If we were in the gym right now, you would be spending some quality on the rope.  We would stay on the rope until we had done enough rope climbs that I finally had your complete and undivided attention.

Moving on now.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

It's good to know that. Basically everyone out there is telling people to rotate the arms. The only ones I don't see telling people to do so are the ones who obviously have no clue what they are doing. So it's kind of surprising to know from coach this is unnecessary.

And I would then add that rotating the arms in many instances is actually wasting time because there are some exercises that are way harder to perform with full external rotation.

When beginners over think things: Hmm this special form cue should help me... or maybe i should do it like this? How is it supposed to be done? I think I had it right the first time. You told me... but what about this way? Please explain every little detail to me before I do this exercise. (Meanwhile someone else is chugging away and continuing to advance because they didn't over think it, leaving people in the dust..) (I'm as guilty as anyone)

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Probably a lot of movement cues get turned/misunderstood into movement requisites. It's like that front lever cue that told you to pull with your back muscles got turned into "front lever must be done with scapular retraction". Coaching cues are important but there's often a context associated to them.

On March 19, 2016 at 8:42 AM, Eduardo Paul said:

It's good to know that. Basically everyone out there is telling people to rotate the arms. The only ones I don't see telling people to do so are the ones who obviously have no clue what they are doing. So it's kind of surprising to know from coach this is unnecessary.

Merely beginners quoting other beginners on the importance of something that they heard from another beginner.

At the end of the day, be more careful in vetting your sources of information.  

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

focusing on scapular articulation (protraction, etc) takes precedence to upper arm orientation for straight arm elements, it seems.

I have seen quite a number of people whom do the banana planches and then there's the folks who have put in the time with good training protocols, Chen Y. comes to mind. his maltese / planche seems different from other peoples in that he looks as if his shoulders are not in the exact line with his head, like a triangle with the top facing upwards. where as others are simply "hanging" off of the scapula forming an upside down triangle with the top facing downwards.

makes sense after reading the plank to planche article on the GB blog. planche work has been....illuminating very similarly to handstand work.

any thoughts on this coach? re-directing our focus to protraction quality in elements where needed in place of thinking in terms of "elbow-pits"?




 

Just so that everyone...still discussing the topic of external rotation, understands what it is

EXRX.net [Shoulder Articulation: Lateral Rotation(External Rotation)]

For anyone with access to the Foundation 1....carefully watch HBP/PE2-iM and HBP/PE3-iM also careful rewatch other course videos for smaller details that you may have missed when you watched the video once before. "If one picture is worth a thousand words." We three pictures and video to glean information from.