Stalled?

Sometimes I wonder if I'm doing something wrong. 18 months in to GB and I'm largely still on only PE1 and PE2 aside from SLS. Thinking I might double down on exercises which I've already mastered (FL/PE1, RC/PE1, sPL/PE1, MN/PE1, HS/PE1, and pHS/PE1), but whose later elements have long been elusive. Maybe starting over on RC, MN, FL, HS, pHS, and sPL, is what I need and is what's been holding me back.

Edit: what would be the best course of action? I already have every course for which I'm applicable, so everything shy of Rings. But the lack of progress is frustrating to say the least. Not sure what more to do/to do differently without either breaking the bank or starting back at zero with GB or a different program altogether. I currently perform Foundations on a 3-day split with HS on Tuesday/Thursday, and Movement on Saturday. I don't feel neurologically fatigued, per se, so I know I'm not overtraining. Yet, at the same time I'm putting in the effort and going hard on each set with effort and form, yet I'm still not making gains on the elements I've mentioned.

I feel your pain.

Daniel, what is holding you back? Strength, endurance, flexibility, injuries, all of the above? Hard work like yours should result in progress.

Depends. All of the above. For FL/PE2 and PE2>im, and sPL/PE1 it's largely strength endurance when on the upper ranges my form breaks down--I can grin and bear it, but what good does cramping up do when the reps have crap form, no? For MN/PE2 it's compression and hip flexion mobility, which I'm working on with Straddle Leg Lifts. For RC/PE2 (and more than probably PE1, though I 'mastered' it) it's strength in the distal biceps tendon which has slowed due to postural shoulder issues (I explain below). For HS/PE1>im, and HS/PE2>im it's shoulder flexibility due to thoracic issues that lead to impingement in the AC joint. In pHS/PE1 and PE1>im it's flexibility/mobility of shoulder flexion and hamstrings. Only recently did I make it into block 2 of HBP/PE2, as I explain my setback with shoulder below. SL/PE2 may be mastered after a form check (though I hesitate to declare I know what counts as 'mastery' anymore). SLS/PE3 and PE3>im is hindered by some hip mobility (but I'm less worried about that as the SLS series is the only element I've had much consistent progress or success with).

As for the stretch series: thoracic extension is nearly non-existent (which has severely limited progress on HS, pHS, HBP, RC, and sPL due to the impingement my shoulders were experiencing from bad posture which was caused by tight traps, scapula and hunched forwardness--which I only recently was able to address due to misdiagnosis and mistreatment in the past); ankle and calf immobility is my biggest hangup for FSs, and my piriformis rarely engages in MSs (though the lower extremity stretch series' have seen greater relative progress compared to TBs, so I worry less about them than I do my thoracic back). Nonetheless, I remain on block 1 or 2 (or failingly so on block 3 for strength endurance elements) for most the elements on which I'm having trouble. I'll keep at it, but am unclear as to what success hardheadedness will bring me. I'd like to make my way to a seminar but living costs in NYC and grad school loans put a halt to any such fanciful traveling for the foreseeable future. Anyways, not sure of what other routes to take. I already have the 'least' frequent of volume for all the series that are in my workout routine and the time between allows for recovery (which I need as I'm usually sore the day after).

Daniel - Not sure if this will help... BUT:

I wish I had on eye on GST like you have back when I was in grad school. There was times I would get to class 7 or 8 AM, sit most the day, then would head over to the fastfood joint to sit on my ass again studying until 11 or 12 at night. Repeat the next day for 5-6 days/week... exhausted.

You deserve some serious respect for participating in this sort of physical program while also completing graduate study requirements. Look at all you've learned about your body and the new goals you have probably set for yourself.

A lot of us have been in the same boat as you. There's something about those strength endurance elements that some people just don't respond well to, and there's really been no official solution provided. The only suggestion coach had at the seminar I went to was to put other elements on maintenance for a while and really focus on breaking the plateau on the troublesome element (I know you've plateaued on more than one, but you'll probably just need to focus on one element at a time). I'm on my phone so it's hard for me to find it right now but MT Nordic had a good post on how to break plateaus. Try to find it. If you can't, just let me know and I'll find it for you when I'm on my computer.

Ryan,

Thanks. I suppose hindsight is 20/20. It does feel like there are many blocks where progress is stalled if occurring at all. Nonetheless, I feel that revisiting RC/PE1 and FL/PE1 might serve me well since those elements are still "hard" as warmups, meanwhile MN, HBP, and SL PE1's are pretty easy. So hopefully getting to the same point with the RC and FL elements I've mastered might prove the push needed to break through on the elements with which I'm currently struggling. The same goes for HS/PE1 being easy (though PE1>im is quite a bit challenging still depending on how warm my thoracic spine is before I start my skill work that day).

Anyways, thanks for the reality check.

-MR,

Appreciated. I've read that before and Zach has given good tips on including off days and half reps. A part of me feels like I could be stronger on those two earlier elements, though they've been 'mastered', any insight as to whether progress on the later progression is directly transferrable to gains on RC/PE1 and FL/PE1?

MN is a matter of time as the leg lifts are working. Same with HBP regarding FBAS, SL and oblique mobility, and SLS with all my leg joints (hips and ankles especially).

Edit: -MR, just found that post from MT Nordic, that's a goldmine. Going to apply that to FL, RC, and sPL until I can get the right reps and then work on minimizing the rest period. Thanks for that; a glimmer of hope, lol.

Thoracic extension, Tight hips, and nasty shoulders, I can relate to all of it. My shoulder hurts, specifically the attachment to of the long head of the biceps into the humerus) but I don't know the root cause. I don't know if its hurting because my pec muscles are keeping my shoulder from moving back where it should ( rounded shoulders). I don't know if its tight Lats/teres, or if its the biceps themselves. So i keep working on all three areas but even after months and months of trying to work it out it still hasn't improved to any appreciable degree. 

Also, I understand where you are coming from, where your lifestyle(desk work, microscope work in my case) really makes it hard to stay limber/mobile, and anything you may have accomplished while trying to keep a regular GB schedule seems to be undone by the hours you spend stuck, and immobile. I've tried also to stay patient but after 2 years I haven't seen much progress in improving mobility. I always wonder if I'm stretching too hard or not hard enough, too often, or not often enough. The sweet spot has been still very elusive to me, and testing efficacy is hard to do when the time it takes to see improvement is so long.

Deep massage therapy would be VERY helpful for things like this, but that post-grad income definitely leaves you wanting. 

Thanks for the link. Yeah, I finally got to a PT who gave me accurate diagnosis and my lats are very tight along with my thoracic. So, over another month or two that issue should be fixed or at least in a better state. From then onwards, I hope to have things in a bit better balance and up and running. Some days this stuff clicks and others it's like is any of this even making sense. It's oft hard to have proper perspective--thankful for these forums and all the vastly useful information.

I am really surprised by this.

I was experiencing really slow progress in F1 for one year up until now. The difference now, is that I feel like many holes were fixed. Core strength and endurance went up sky-rocket and I find it easier to endure most of the elements.

So my point here is you might need a longer time to fix your strength/endurance/mobility holes maybe

From the sounds of it, you've got some similar issues to me, the aspects that I've found I'm most lacking in are:

flexibility

work capacity 

So far what's working for me is, really doubling down on the mobility work, 3 hard stretch sessions a week like coach recommends, use the im from further PEs, there's a couple from PE2 and 3 that really help my shoulder mobility (I have a lot of the same problems as you)

Longer training session. My sessions used to be about 45mins and mostly trying to work in the anaerobic range. However I've found I make more progress doing 1 hour 45 min - 2 hour sessions where I'm working at what feels like a moderate but sustainable pace. 

No idea if it'll work for you, but so far it's helped push my progress along much more.

Hi Daniel,

I'm still on F1 elements after about 18 months also, though in my case I think I can be more consistent with my workouts and make better progress. But during that time I've also healed my shoulder, knee and back. I'm stronger and more mobile than I've been since I was 19 and I feel great!

I was also frustrated with how little progress it seemed I was making. What really helped me last summer was to let go of worrying about how much progress I'm making and to just enjoy the work. I've made more progress since I've adopted this attitude than I did the entire year before. For me the key to making better progress is my mind, not specifically in the exercise or number of reps or sets. Coach already figured that out for me.

If you havent read them already I found the books "Mastery" by George Leonard, "The Practicing Mind" by Thomas Sterner, and the "Art of Learning" by Josh Waitzkin to be enormously helpful in improving my mindset. Coach Sommers quotes are pretty awesome also

There are some items that stand out to me as red flags in terms of your progress:

1) Training with an unresolved injury. This is an area where the majority athletes are guilty. If you are not a professional athlete with artificial deadlines, there is no reason to train the limb/muscle until you've fixed it. Injuries (impingement is an injury) must be addressed before any training. Consider this, if you squeeze a pole with your right and left hand simultaneously, the difference between the dominant and non dominant should roughly 20% strength. If you have even a mild impingement that difference will either even out (dominant hand impingement)  or multiply (non-dominant hand). This demonstrates that you are not physically capable of putting out full strength. Why then would you expect training results?

To use an analogy, a nerve is much like a four lane highway. If you have a car accident on that highway and it blocks one lane, you will lose sensation and strength. Muscles that are chronically 'on' and tight are enough to do this. If you block two lanes, you begin to tingle. Three lanes creates numbness and four lanes is a burning pain.  Now, imagine trying to do road construction while there is a one or more lane accident on that section of highway. This is what happens when you are training on an injury. A good therapist is invaluable here but Science of Massage also has excellent protocols, that with some study of the technique can be applied on your own by family or friends.

2. Lifestyle factors fighting against training progress. If you are sitting more than not it will kill lower body flexibility. Computer work will kill shoulder flexibility, especially if your forearms are not completely supported. Now, imagine trying to fill in a hole with dirt. If someone is digging in your hole, you will need to put more dirt in than is being dug out. This is where daily limbering and mobility is valuable. You don't need to do hard work each day but you do need to create enough exposure to convince your body not to keep turning to cement. Very likely, many students could need a half hour a day broken up so as to interrupt long periods of inactivity. The hardest part is forming the habit to be doing this daily.

3. Consistency. This may or not be a factor for you, but it is a very common one. Every workout missed is like not eating for an entire day in terms of your progress. 

4. Emotional fatigue. GST requires best effort, which is something that most students have to learn. It's very easy to quit when discomfort sets in but the determining factor should not be how unpleasant it is but rather joint pain or technique breakdown. If neither is happening you have to push through it. You'd be amazed at the reps Coach can squeeze out of an athlete, the art of which is a marker for a good coach.

As -MR mentioned, focusing on 1-2 items at a time can make a large difference. When you focus, it's much easier to get in everything needed to fill in the holes with dirt.

A little while ago Coach mentioned in a post that we need to be taking our mobility and handstand work more seriously and that many of us could benefit from some daily limbering. What he said definitely applied to me so at the beginning of the year I scaled back F7 to 1 day a week and have added a daily 30-40 minute limbering routine. I also have added a second HS workout and do each of the stretch courses once a week. It can be a lot to fit in but my body/mobility has definitely been responding to the extra focus. I think Cory's response was excellent and I especially agree with his second point. At work I spend a lot of time in my truck driving and I can feel it 'digging in my hole', as Cory put it. The daily limbering work has definitely tipped the scales in my favour.

First of all, thank you for a comprehensive post Cory, it is always nice when we get a glimpse of an expert’s brain. For the issues listed, 2) is the severest problem for me, being stuck 9 hours in front of a desk every day. Could you, or BrettCross, recommend/share a daily limbering routine specifically targeting us desk zombies? Maybe it is something simple as picking the Stretch exercises that gives us the most trouble and performing them for shorter durations?

MattiasF said:

 

Maybe it is something simple as picking the Stretch exercises that gives us the most trouble and performing them for shorter durations?

 

Shorter duration and less intensity since it will be higher frequency, but yes.

That is correct that the injury was preventing my progress, however, I did try to address it various times: I saw a PT who misdiagnosed it, I went to the forums for help thereafter but it didn't get better; only recently did the PT accurately pinpoint my issue and as such have I been able to tackle it head-on. Additionally, the life hurdles of ailing family members and graduate school focus have diverted my attentions, not to be an excuse but just an added hurdle. I am going to go forward once I get over this cold by addressing the few elements that are giving me trouble, as well as the thoracic mobility that has been holding back a lot of my gains in upper body movements. In regards to limbering up, that's not really an issue I foam roll twice daily and am pretty limber it's just that rather frequently I get called away from my routine and schedule, as per life's probability to do so, and therein I lose ground and consistent focus on the workouts. So, while issue 1 which Cory mentioned was largely my limiting factor last year, number 2 and 4 have been problematic more recently. 

The note by MT Nordic to increase strength with greater rest and then to decrease rest seems like a logical progression that I had not yet considered. I had simply, failingly, been attempting to attain mastery with the requisite zero rest but due to other life factors/stressors that are beyond my control, I have been having a hard time breaking through the plateaus on certain elements. Here's to hoping I can establish a quality routine with consistent progress from the end of this month onwards. 

Edit: Here is the link to MT Nordic's post in case any one else passing through this thread is interested in the insights he provides (which are pretty astute -- while also quite similar to what Cory mentions below): https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/17397-busting-plateaus/?hl=%2Bbreaking+%2Bplateaus#entry165813

Alot of our progress is not measured in reps or what level of Foundation you are up to. I have been at Foundation a long time and am only in F2 and 3. However my body is now completely different. I have spent years undoing all the imbalances that I had created from poor training practices. when I started foundation my anterior pelvic tilt was so bad I struggled to do FL/Pe 1. I feel like the last 3-4 years has been spent correcting this and now I am only just getting started.

It may take you years to correct your imbalances. But when you do you will be so thankful and your progress will take off. The other alternative is that you give up and in 5 years time you will wonder what could have been. In another 5 years you will stiffer amd more imbalanced and it will be alot harder to turn your body around.

Haha, thanks Mark. I have no intentions of quitting. I've spent a few years looking for what GB offers after dabbling in other programs like Convict Conditioning, Starting Strength, P90x and the like. By no means are those comparable, but for what they lacked it left me wanting and led me here. Seeing the extent of some individuals' expedited progress it left me wondering as to whether I was missing something. Turns out I'm not missing something beyond the facts that balance and moderation in life, patience with the process, as well as realistic appreciation of one's current ability and one's progress being sometimes smaller than the course outlines are vital to one's success with GST.

Mark Collins said:

Alot of our progress is not measured in reps or what level of Foundation you are up to. I have been at Foundation a long time and am only in F2 and 3. However my body is now completely different. I have spent years undoing all the imbalances that I had created from poor training practices. when I started foundation my anterior pelvic tilt was so bad I struggled to do FL/Pe 1. I feel like the last 3-4 years has been spent correcting this and now I am only just getting started.

It may take you years to correct your imbalances. But when you do you will be so thankful and your progress will take off. The other alternative is that you give up and in 5 years time you will wonder what could have been. In another 5 years you will stiffer amd more imbalanced and it will be alot harder to turn your body around.

Wise words Mark. I bought Foundation when it first came out and it has been 3 years now and I am still on F1. Throughout that time I trained off and on and never really made much headway due to the imbalances my scoliosis and hip injury had developed over the past 2 decades. Only when I seeked specialist help at the end of last year and focussed on ironing out my imbalances did I come back to Foundation at the beginning of 2016 and wow has it felt different! The term "spinning your wheels" really did apply to my attempts to train previously. While I still have scoliosis specific exercises I have to train daily when I do my GB training I can feel my body no longer trying to fight itself.

Also like Brett mentioned above I have focussed on daily limbering and mobility drills and it is starting to pay off so everyone who isn't doing it should really consider it as I have no doubt your rate of progression will increase. When you have the required mobility the strength exercises really do feel like a completely different beast.

So Daniel, I really feel your pain. Only after 3 years of trying to identify and overcome my specific injuries do I now feel my training is underway. I really hope you sort yours soon. I know it's frustrating as hell but you'll get there.

P.S. This thread is awesome and deserves a sticky

Thanks, El Chino. It can sure be frustrating as hell. Good to know that there are many dealing with similar issues to me and to see that they are now experiencing success and expedited progress in this GB process. Let's me know that these frustrations are not  that unique nor are they in vain. 

I know it's not encouraged here, but I saw much greater improvements in progress after adding some weighted work back into my routine. Allows for infinitely scaleable progression to build strength in a more predictable manner.

I understand that. But I think what would be best is weighted mobility. I've done a lot of weight work up until starting GST, while it has its own benefits and drawbacks it doesn't much account for flexibility and mobility of the joint tissue. That, however, is not really the focus of my post or this thread and I would hope to refrain from digressing onto the merits or concepts behind that topic since it's an altogether different subject from what I initially wrote about. Thanks for the insight, though, do you have any links that you use or know about which might be of substance or help explain your point?

El Chino said:

Wise words Mark. I bought Foundation when it first came out and it has been 3 years now and I am still on F1. Throughout that time I trained off and on and never really made much headway due to the imbalances my scoliosis and hip injury had developed over the past 2 decades. Only when I seeked specialist help at the end of last year and focussed on ironing out my imbalances did I come back to Foundation at the beginning of 2016 and wow has it felt different! The term "spinning your wheels" really did apply to my attempts to train previously. While I still have scoliosis specific exercises I have to train daily when I do my GB training I can feel my body no longer trying to fight itself.

 

Also like Brett mentioned above I have focussed on daily limbering and mobility drills and it is starting to pay off so everyone who isn't doing it should really consider it as I have no doubt your rate of progression will increase. When you have the required mobility the strength exercises really do feel like a completely different beast.

 

So Daniel, I really feel your pain. Only after 3 years of trying to identify and overcome my specific injuries do I now feel my training is underway. I really hope you sort yours soon. I know it's frustrating as hell but you'll get there.

 

P.S. This thread is awesome and deserves a sticky

Sound like you're making good progress now. I'm 41 and have no doubt I would have many

imbalances that I've acquired over the years of bad habits. What specialist help did you receive??

Was it physiotherapy? I'd love to hear.

347mont said:

Sound like you're making good progress now. I'm 41 and have no doubt I would have many

 

imbalances that I've acquired over the years of bad habits. What specialist help did you receive??

 

Was it physiotherapy? I'd love to hear.

I am a Physio, so I have the advantage of knowing why I cannot perform an exercise. I would recommend others to get regular treatment to fast track their progress. I self treat and if it is something I cannot do I get treatment off my colleague.

I also have not missed one week of training since starting Foundation and handstand I consider myself a slow responder, but I have more discipline and persistence than most people. The key for me was to just keep doing the workouts week to week and my body adapts and gets better. I have noticed many people come and go with Foundation, but the ones that do well just keep putting in the work.