Question

Hello everybody,

 

I purchased the foundations a while back, but never really got into it.  I used some of the exercises, but never really stuck to the programming and workout scheduler.  I am now getting back into it, following the workouts and advancing based on the reps I should be able to do to master the movements.  I am on foundation 2, and was wondering if it would be a bad idea to start into rings 1.  I know it advises you to complete all the foundation courses before starting into the rings series, but I feel I have a pretty decent foundation already and was wondering what others opinions are.  Thanks in advance.

For rings one I highly suggest to finish F4 for both RC and HBP. And match the requirements of shoulder extension exposed on manna F4.

RC for biceps , brachialis and triceps preparation.

HBP for rotator cuff preparation since during rings stabilization the supraspinatus exerts about the 60-75% of MVC to hold the humerus head into the socket.

Alessandro Mainente said:

HBP for rotator cuff preparation since during rings stabilization the supraspinatus exerts about the 60-75% of MVC to hold the humerus head into the socket.

Would you mind explaining this one a bit more?

Of course, I hope to be clear.

Before Christmas I went to say goodbye to Chechi's Coach who now is no longer involved in national training, he works on some international projects of FIG. when happens this opportunity I always take advantage to discuss with him something about GST , first because he was an olympic coach and second because he is considered a Master of Sport from the Italian Olympic National Committee. I'm not surprised that he shares the same ideas of C. Sommer.

We've talked about weighted shoulders mobility and its importance especially for strong athletes.

 

During the work over the rings there is an impressive amount of pushing and supporting work compared with pulling work. during the supported work all the muscles that work to stabilize rings increase a lot the tendency of upperarm head to move out from the socket especially when there is a strong involvement of anterior delt and pect minor. starting from muscleup until cross and maltese, the cooperation of anterior delt and pec minor increases dramatically. In same moment supraspinatus needs to exert around the 70% of its MVC (maximal voluntary contraction) in order to  maintain the humerus on the glenoid cavity while stabilize the UpperLimb in external rotation.

 

We passed sometime talking about elastic bands for rotator cuff and weighted work. Basically elastic bands should be used for warm up and cool down, while weighted work for rotator cuff should be implemented 2-3 times a week.

After I made a guess that also him has found logic.

During the rings elements ( like holds, swing, or swing and stop in isometric holds) the activation of supraspinatus should be fast an strong at the same time. We know basically that for a fast activation as possible a muscle should work around the 40-50% of the 1RM. the higher is your 1RM, the higher will be the weight you can move as fast as you can.

it's like to say that with a 1RM of 100kg  I can reach the maximum speed with 50kg, while with 200 kg 1RM i'll reach the maximum speed with 100kg.

The basic idea is that during rings element my rotator cuff muscles need to stabilize as much tension as possible in the less time as possible.

For this idea he told me that 50% on last IM of HBP it is a great achievement but for fast/strong stabilization I should aim to 75% to BW on the last IM. he made me the clear example of olympic lifters. In some Russian training center they aim to perform a bodyweight muscles snatch. 

Was he recommending to do the Cuban presses fast? Interestingly shoulder rehab for baseball progresses to quick rotator cuff exercises to be sports specific.

Thank you for the explanation Alessandro and I understand the need for a comprehensive prep, but regarding the OP question, can't he start the basic elements of rings 1? I think Coach said you could play with it after finishing F2. I don't own rings 1 yet so I don't know until what level it is worked to, but all those MVC values aren't for advanced work like planche, cross and maltese ? What about more simple things like basic support, german hang, muscle up( not reverse) and back lever? I already read several warnings about back lever and biceps tear, but are those basic moves also included in your recommendation or could they be played with after finishing F2?

Mark Collins said:

Was he recommending to do the Cuban presses fast? Interestingly shoulder rehab for baseball progresses to quick rotator cuff exercises to be sports specific.

Nope Mark, not until a decent level of maximal strength is achieved. One this happened yes fast movement and SSSSSSlow negative to restretch the connective tissue.

From a theoretical POV a muscles learn to move faster if you teach it "how to move faster" , the problem we have with all muscles is that fast movements are subjected to higher risk. the only solution to provide some safe condition is increase the 1RM first.

it is a typical concept also in powerlifting when it is applied for sports preparation.

If i suppose to be fast with my BW when sprinting , I need to train some exercises with fast movement (we consider it the "conversion" phase), but how I can train my body faster if I can barely move for 1 rep the 70% of BW? oo risk.  it is not a chance that high level sprinters could squat approximately double of their BW. when they after move to power conversion they can train safety at 50% of  1RM that correspond to bodyweigth .

Another example is with snatch, once a BW muscles snatch is completed,  part of the warm up consists in half body weight muscle snatch with arms movement as fast as possible. the speed should be approximately the same as the arms movement in competition snatch. 

Unfortunately we cannot properly provide the same angle of activation of the rotator cuff muscles as in rings sequence, for this reason have an high room for improvement it is necessary. 50% BW on cuban is not suggested, it is imperative from my pov.

Romulo said:

Thank you for the explanation Alessandro and I understand the need for a comprehensive prep, but regarding the OP question, can't he start the basic elements of rings 1? I think Coach said you could play with it after finishing F2. I don't own rings 1 yet so I don't know until what level it is worked to, but all those MVC values aren't for advanced work like planche, cross and maltese ? What about more simple things like basic support, german hang, muscle up( not reverse) and back lever? I already read several warnings about back lever and biceps tear, but are those basic moves also included in your recommendation or could they be played with after finishing F2?

In fact he says PLAY not consistent work.

People who prematurely experiment rings support work usually have anterior shoulders problems and pain. this is exactly what's happen with low preparation. it is not the occasional work that causes problem on the physique but consistent approach and unprepared physique.

Jlanger said:

Hello everybody,

I purchased the foundations a while back, but never really got into it. I used some of the exercises, but never really stuck to the programming and workout scheduler. I am now getting back into it, following the workouts and advancing based on the reps I should be able to do to master the movements. I am on foundation 2, and was wondering if it would be a bad idea to start into rings 1. I know it advises you to complete all the foundation courses before starting into the rings series, but I feel I have a pretty decent foundation already and was wondering what others opinions are. Thanks in advance.

To give you a clear and concise answer: it would be a bad idea to start working on the rings series.

Playing around with the elements should be fine as long as you are careful, however.

Joshua Slocum said:

To give you a clear and concise answer: it would be a bad idea to start working on the rings series.

Playing around with the elements should be fine as long as you are careful, however.

Thanks for the responses! I always enjoy learning new things and your explanations helped a lot.  I have  "played" with elements on the rings for a while now, so I will continue to do that and take your advice on finishing the foundation series  before I move on.  Thanks for the advice!

Thanks Ale, and sorry to derail there--- I seized the opportunity to ask about a topic I've been digging into lately also