Vertical Pike Pulls = pulled lower back

Hi.

I’ve been doing Foundations 1 for a year; I’ve been enjoying the program immensely and have been adhering to the protocols religiously.

 Two nights ago while going into the ‘seated’ position of the Vertical Pike Pull (MN/PE6>iM) I hurt my lower back. I ended up in Urgent Care to get painkillers and muscle relaxants so that I could get into my house. Two days later I’m still hurting. The doctors suspect I might have slipped a disc; I think I just strained all my lower back muscles. My question is I’m not sure what happened or why it happened…?

Any insight would be appreciated…..

Joseph

Hi Joseph,

Sorry to hear you have hurt your back. By the sounds of it your doctor may be right, if it isn't a herniated (slipped) disc it may be a bulge.

It is very unlikely that you have pulled the muscles in your back. A lot of why it happened will depend on your particuular history i.e. what you have done before, occupation, age etc.

Vertical pike pulls need to be performed with a flat lower back, anterior pelvic tilt, otherwise the lower back is rounded and that means a lot of pressure will be upon the discs.

If the pain is only limited to your lower back and not in either of the legs then take that as a positive. It is possible to for a herniated disc or bulge to press on nerve roots but it doesn't sound like you have done that.

Rest for now, limit your time sitting, keep moving gently and often and avoid bending and lifting.

I am out right now but am happy to help and explain some more later when I get home.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery,

Wesley

Like Wes stated. Too much lumbar flexion and not enough anterior pelvic tilt. Hopefully it is nothing serious. I would avoid lumbar flexion for a week or two then reasses how the back is. If it is just soft tissue you will be feeling alot better by then.

It's good to know this Im needs to be performed with anterior pelvic tilt because the course video shows it with lower back rounding. Figured it was just another way of training the lower back just like Jefferson curls which are done rounded

None of my athletes have ever performed stall bar work with anterior pelvic tilt.

Do you have more information on your back?  Pre-existing injury?  How long have you been working pike pulls on the stall bars?  How often?

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Wesley, Mark, Philip, and Coach Sommer:

Thank you all for your replies and insight.

The pain is limited to my lower back, exclusively; I’m not experiencing any issues with my legs.

More background:

I’m 33 years old and, generally-speaking, am in good shape.

I pulled my lower back 3 years ago deadlifting but not nearly to the level of what I'm experiencing now. I found an NST practitioner who got me pain-free a year ago and had not had any additional issues with my back until this occurred.

I started Foundations (and Handstand) from the beginning of the programming; I’m am currently doing the 4-day template (M,T,Th,F) with handstands on T and Th. I am on week 2 of the MN/PE6 protocol, so this was only my 4^th session on Vertical Pike Pulls.

The X-rays they did at Urgent Care showed that the spine looked OK. I did not yet get an MRI done to check for soft tissue damage. I’m going to my NST practitioner tomorrow and look forward to getting more information then and will keep you all posted.

Any further thoughts or insights would be appreciated.

Joseph

(Wesley: highfive on the James Allen quote in your footer!)

Hi Joseph,

I was not so clear in my earlier post so let me clarify. Coach Sommer is indeed right about none of his athletes performing Vertical pike pulls with anterior tilt because keeping the arms and legs straight makes it impossible to keep a flat back/anterior tilt through the pulling phase.

However, at the very bottom of the motion (as in the next iM of the Manna progressions, the Vertical pike hang) the back flattens and the pelvis moves into anterior tilt as the arms are lengthened away from the pelvis and the back is pulled long.

The better pike fold one has, the compression between the thorax and legs is achieved and the head moves further down the legs toward the feet. As this happens the back becomes increasingly lengthened and the pelvis is moves more freely into anterior tilt as the hamstrings lengthen and no longer resist. The key is stated in the bullet points 'descend only to a depth you are comfortable with'. 

I think another key point is how close together you may have your feet and hands. It would be better to start of with an increased distance, as your hamstring and back flexibility improve, move them closer together. You do not want an excessively rounded back at the the bottom of the motion, especially if you have had a history of lower back injury before.

From the sounds of your history, you most likely have some degree of bulge present and this can leave an area of weakness in the posterior aspect of the intervertebral disc, that can weaken again if stressed.

I have definiely had a disc bulge myself too, about 6 years ago before I started GST I overdid seated pike folds in astanga yoga, trying to excessively pull myself downward instead of lengthening through my spine. That episode lasted about 4 weeks and like you the pain was limited to my low back with a lot of stiffness. GST has helped strengthen my back loads and I have better mobility now then ever, including my pike, but I have to be wise and move slowly through my progressions. I have had minor episodes that remind me of my back, last few weeks have been slightly tender, but that was my fault from over training in 1 week when I got a little excited with some free days.

I hope this helps. Take it slow and steady and don't push your mobility hard like Coach Sommer always says, you can't approach flexibility like max strength work.

Best wishes,

Wesley

Wes,

I appreciate the follow-up and additional insights. I’m doing much better than a week ago but am still stiff and sore. My NST practitioner is pretty adamant it’s not a disc issue but simply a back strain.

I guess this opens up a bigger discussion though… As I mentioned before, I’ve been working with Foundations 1 (and Handstand 1) for a year and love it! The only weakness I’ve found thus-far is that there doesn’t seem to be (or I have not found) any sort of pre-workout warm-up routine. Do you (or Coach Sommer) have any insight in this regard?

Thanks,

Joseph

Warm ups are covered in the course materials and expanded on in the forums. Warm up should not be compicated and varies from individual to individual. If you are doing MN PE6 you have 5 strength and mobility exercises you can pick from to warm up.

It is not common for people to get injuries due to lack of a warm up. It is mostly due to pushing too hard for what the tissue cope with or using the incorrect technique.

As a follow-up:

Two weeks removed from my injury, I am up and moving around OK but have not yet returned to training.

As the swelling and inflammation have resided, my physical therapist / NST practitioner is if the opinion my spine is OK (as I do not have shooting pains down my leg he does not suspect a bulging/ herniated disc). Instead, he believes that I strained/tore (a type 2 strain) the top of my Gluteus Medius or Gluteus Maximus. Would that make sense to anyone here?

Joseph

Thats good news. It makes sense as the gluteals insert into the top of the pelvis. At this point there is strong fascia that then blends into the lumbar muscles.

Ease back into to training and progress this exercise more conservatively.

Mark - 

Thank you very much for your insight and support.

After a few NST sessions and a bunch of time resting (3 or 4 weeks), I'm planning on getting back to easing into my routine tomorrow. I know I won't be able to start from where I left off, but do you have any insights on how to start easing back into my progressions again? (i.e., where to start from?) I was thinking I should go back and make sure I can still achieve mastery of all prior progressions as an indication of where to start from...

Would appreciate you thoughts.

Thanks!

Joseph

I would drop back one level. With the vertical pike walk pick a level that you can do pain free. That may only be one rung on the bars. As you feel ready increase the ROM gradually. I would do this for 4-6 weeks.

Joseph,

I am still of the opinion that your injury was a discal one. Muscle strains will not produce that level of symptoms. The distribution, onset, stiffness, time frame etc are all indicative of a discal injury.

Disc bulges do not cause shooting pains in the legs unless they are pressing upon a spinal nerve root. I do believe you have strained your back, but the strain will be in the annulus fibrosis layers and possibly the posterior longitudinal ligament of your spine.

I say this as I have seen many times, people given the wrong diagnosis with lower back pain. It doesn't change how you proceed, as Mark said drop back and proceed with caution, take your time and don't rush. It does however change the time frame of full recovery and to think of strengthening your back as a long term goal. Even once the pain has gone, mechanically there is a slight weakness, the trick is not to put the strain on those tissues to often.

I wish you all the best getting back into your training and let us know hiw it goes along.

Wes

Joseph Baglieri said:

Mark - 

Thank you very much for your insight and support.

After a few NST sessions and a bunch of time resting (3 or 4 weeks), I'm planning on getting back to easing into my routine tomorrow. I know I won't be able to start from where I left off, but do you have any insights on how to start easing back into my progressions again? (i.e., where to start from?) I was thinking I should go back and make sure I can still achieve mastery of all prior progressions as an indication of where to start from...

Would appreciate you thoughts.

 

Thanks!

Joseph

i hurt myself on this particular mobility element as well.   I noticed a slight tweak, at the bottom like you, and immediately stopped my workout.  My low back bothered me for about 1 week.    I didn't see anyone, and just took OTC pain meds for several days.   Mine obviously wasn't as bad as yours.  

I decided to go back to MN/PE1 and start over on that element.   I am working up very slowly on it and ensuring absolutely perfect form.

Just wondering, guys: How much weight did you work up to on Jefferson curls, before you started the vertical pike pulls?

I had a very slight back tweak when I started Jefferson curls, which lasted a couple of days, but since then, nothing. I probably built up to ~40 kg JC before beginning the vertical pike pulls, and suppose that a semi-heavy JC would be good preparation.

Ravn said:

Just wondering, guys: How much weight did you work up to on Jefferson curls, before you started the vertical pike pulls?

 

I had a very slight back tweak when I started Jefferson curls, which lasted a couple of days, but since then, nothing. I probably built up to ~40 kg JC before beginning the vertical pike pulls, and suppose that a semi-heavy JC would be good preparation.

I have been doing around 80 pounds, so I think thats close to your numbers.  I am not sure if a bigger number on Jefferson Curls would help with this element or just gradually increasing the stretch range of motion.  Maybe Coach or someone can offer some advice.  

Interesting idea on the correlation between the Jefferson Curl weight and the vertical pike pull mobility. All of my JCs were done with just a bar.

Joseph

Sometimes we will get injuries with training as we are pushing our body to adapt. It is not always the case that you were unprepared or have bad form you just pushed too hard. Rather than starting from the beginning just do the exercise you are on less intensley and spend more time on it.

Mark Collins said:

Sometimes we will get injuries with training as we are pushing our body to adapt. It is not always the case that you were unprepared or have bad form you just pushed too hard. Rather than starting from the beginning just do the exercise you are on less intensley and spend more time on it.

You might be right.  The reason I started over was I didn't feel like I was actually doing the exercise that intensely.  It was the last exercise of a long work though, so I suspect I was tired and maybe a bit sloppy.

I too have suffered a low back injury almost two years ago after playing with this exercise a few times, in my case probably there was a pre-existent discal problem.

I had a discopatia confirmed by a Mri that stopped me for almost four months, now it seems gone even if I have a suspect sensation of moderate discomfort when I train the Jefferson Curls with a challenging (for me) weight.

I think that I had a pre-existent problem because every time I trained deadlifts and I went beyond a certain weight inevitably suffered from aches and pains in the low back the lasted for 10-14 days, and I was sure to use a good form.

Reading this thread I made the same reflections that made Ravn: maybe it is better to build the Jefferson Curls to a higher weight to be

prepared for this exercise.

When I tried it, I was only at the beginning with the JC progression, so my lower back wasn't prepared for sure.

Probably there is a jump in load for the lumbar spine that is too high from the initial position to the final.

I translate to the best I can the report of the Mri I did then, if Mark or Wes could comment it I wold be grateful.

"In L4 and L5 'it presents a herniated disk in median localization.

The herniated disk described deforms the front profile of the dural sac and in the lateral extension reduces the amplitude of the lower recesses of the intervertebral foramen coming in contact with the corresponding nerve roots.

The spinal canal, it is slightly restricted for congenital shortness of stalks

The signal of the joint space and joint interapofisarias between L2 and L4 is being hyperintense on T2-weighted inflammatory phenomena by altered biomechanical loading"

The strange thing is that looking at the Mri images attached, I dont see evidence of herniated disks.

I can share those also if you want.

Now I can bend and arch the lower back without problems but when I bend tho the right side I have a sesation of thigness that is greater of that I have when I bend to the left one.

Hi Stefano,

What age are you? I would not be too concerned with those scans as you have good pain free ROM. Knowing that you have a history of disc injury will just mean you progress more conservatively than someone with no history of injury. If in doubt do less and take longer to progress.

50% of 40 year olds have scans like you and they have no symptoms. Sometimes when we read scans they can make us quite fearful of our body and it can really limit what you can achieve.

Hy Mark, thanks for the reply;

I'm 49 years old and the injury happened in May 2014.

Luckily the pain began to decrease towards the end of June and in mid September I was pratically pain free and started to training again.

As I said the strange thing is that by looking at the Mri images I don't see any sign of disk bulging or similar.

Now I'm progressing very slow with the Jefferson Curls and I have already seen the benefits of this execise for my lower back.

I have another doubt about these issues: I have a rigid lower back that bends siightly when I execute the exercise, while the

thoracic spine is a lot more flexible, and my pike position is still little closed.

So at the end of the JC I see a good bend of the thoracic spine while the lower spine remanis little below the horizontal and with a small curvature.

My concern is that in that position there may be cutting forces too strong for the lumbar discs and therefore I can still get injured increasing the weght.

Actually I use 7-8kg.

So my question is: it would be better to stop progressing the JC until my pike poistion in the lower back become below the horizontal for a good angle, let say 35-45 degrees, in a manner that the weight gives also a component of traction force along the axis of the lumbar spine making the exercise safer in the final poisiton?

Or is it safe to continue a very slow progress despite the fact that I have the lower back almost horizontal in the end position so that the increasing weight will make the lumbar spine more flexible with time with an increasing pike closing?

At 49 I would not be worried with those scans.

If you are finding the low back is not flexing but the thoracic spine is then try doing some bench pike stretches. With this stretch you start with the low back flexed and then the hamstrings. The inverted pike stretches in H2 will do this as well.

Keep doing the JC as you are. You will find if you are doing front split stretch, FL progressions, H2 and T1 your low back flexion will get there.

Why do you say that at my age the MRI results are not to be concerned of?

I would have thought the exact opposite.

Thank you for the other indications, regarding the bench pike stretch I should do it

without a complete legs extension, to avoid the problem of the final position with

the lower back in a not pike closed position.

It would be fine too?