What is the key to creating great gymnasts?

Hi

Last week i attended the New Zealand National Champs, and i started thinking how come there is such a huge difference in performance at the compulsory levels even amongst the strongest regions?

What is the key to creating great gymnasts? Is it talent? coaching? the program that the kids go through? the club culture (winners bread winners mentality)?

What do you think? I would be really interested in hearing everyone's opinions

Please discuss in this thread and or join TheGymPress facebook discussion board: http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic ... 4800373822

(Note: I will be compiling all responses by people who share here and other forums on TheGymPress Facebook discussion board. However it be soooo much easier if everyone just joined the Discussion board and posted HERE and these, plus it will go towards TheGymPress goal of creating a greater gymnastics coaching worldwide community)

What is the key to creating great gymnasts?

The answer to this is twofold.

The single greatest factor for creating champions in gymnastics is the coaching. Talent alone is not nearly enough to prosper in such a highly technical sport as gymnastics. There are talented gymnasts languishing everywhere, who could have accomplished extraordinary things if they only had had the years of proper guidance. I myself have been fortunate to have run programs in three different states within the USA with National Team members/champions at each location. I have had people come up to me numerous times over the years and ask how I always seem to manage to find such outstanding athletes. I simply smile and answer; "I build them."

This is why only a handful of top coaches continue to produce the majority of national/international champions consistently year after year.

Admittedly how far along the competitive ladder (local, state, regional, national, international, world, olympic) a student will ultimately progress is also dependent upon their level of talent and innate strength of character. This is where the coach's eye for selecting talent is critical. When competing at the highest levels, even the greatest coach in the world cannot make up for a deficit of talent or ability.

To achieve greatness, the talent and coaching must go hand in hand. In fact, to be successful at the World or Olympic Level requires an almost magical combination of incredible talent and extraordinary coaching. One without the other will always fall short of the ultimate goal.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

And that's the end of that discussion.. hah.

Very thorough and good answer.

Just to note as a very small subnote, is that such gymnasts need to have a support structure. I doubt it's as much of an issue where gymnastics is free or state-run/subsisted but it's a huge factor where parent/s must support their child.

I've seen a handful of gymnasts never really go anywhere because their home life is just a mess. An example tends to be seperate families.

I know a handful of coaches who just chalk it up to elites being a lottery pick. Sometimes that kid just has it in them.

Very good point. The good character and intent of the family are essential. In fact, without it I will not even attempt to train an athlete; regardless of how talented they are.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I worked under one men's coach and the only thing I learned from him was to let boys on team who's parents were stable and not going to drive you crazy. I wish I could say I learned more from him, but I didn't. Not a drill or a tip here or there.

Too bad our girl's coaches don't seem to be able to do this (half of the girl's parents are nutty or they are forced by budget to keep on dealing with problematic parents).

We had one girl at one gym I was at and I was very astonished by this girl and I don't even think she was 6. I asked our head coach how far she would go and he said maybe optional if she can even get to compete in compulsory with her family. Sad. One parent supports it while the other doesn't care.

1.Good coach

2.Gymnasts work

3.Talent (not just motorical, but strength, mental, flexybility,...)

4.External factors (as blairbob said fammily, school,...)

5.Good training facilities

All this together makes a great gymnast. It all has a peace in mosaic.

I have been thinking hard about the responses i have seen about this questions and it strikes me that people feel that talent is so far down the list of pre-requisites and coaching is almost always placed as number one. I think that talent should be number 1 on the list, followed by coaching (even though i can totally understand the opposing argument). However i have never heard anyone say when talking to any high level athlete "wow your coach was so great that they help you become such a great athlete", its always more along the line of he was so talented that with the right coaching he was able to achieve this and than. This is kinda like the chicken or the egg.

Given this here is another thought. Hypothetically If coaching is the key determinant, then all top coaches who consistently produce great gymnast should be able get a kid with some degree of talent but nothing amazing, and produce a high level, successful athlete? This doesn't sound right to me..

Coach you say:

"This is why only a handful of top coaches continue to produce the majority of national/international champions consistently year after year"

However from my experience there are just as MANY if not more top coaches who don't produce athletes consistently. Examples that comes to mind...(Carly Peterson's coach..i forget his name), Steve Nuno, Tammy Biggs (even thought this is probably unfair given that she doesn't run a program of her own), Al Fong (unfortunately i am more familiar with WAG coaches in the US than MAG), Neil Resnik (lots of collage gymnasts but not really ever anyone who took the world stage, and many people regard Neil a master coach).There are others as well, for example here in NZ we have had coaches from the Romanin National team who are deemed to be extremely good (former coach of Marius Urzica for example) that find it very hard to produce athletes here in NZ. So why comes to mind, and from talks with them, they say that it is lack of numbers and culture. Yes these coaches produce really nice gymnasts here as well, but not great gymnasts.

So what is the one thing that many of these handful of coaches seem to share aside from being good at what they do..and what comes to mind is a lot of is Numbers!, lots of kids in the younger ages, out of whom maybe a few will will continue to high levels. How many TOP level coaches like Vitaly Liukin for example coach from Level 4-6?? Not many is my bet. Coach do you still coach L1-6 boys are you to busy with the higher level athletes?.

I am pretty sure that like most things creating great gymnasts is of course not dictated by a single determinant but by a more holics view (which seems to be supported by what people say, for example Gregors response).

Well, sometimes you have gymnasts like Alicia Sacramone who can start gymnastics at like age 12 and become elite. Extremely talented. Although often times that leaves holes in their well rounded capabilities... such as her not doing so well on bars.

edit: fail. alicia started at like 8. who was it that started at like 12 or 13?

It's easier for a coach to take someone of lesser talent and get them up to respectable (aka college scholarships) than it is to foster natural talent WELL to high levels. Most of the coaches you named probably produce tons of NCAA gymnasts. Level 10 and into junior/senior elite is nothing to sneeze at. Most programs barely have any level 7-8 gymnasts. On the other hand, it's very easy to ruin very talented gymnasts with lack of good coaching.

I mean, it is really both. But good coaches can do more with less, while talented gymnasts NEED a lot of things to fall into line to make things turn out well. The selection systems are always trying to improve because it's very hard to find very good talent that doesn't fall through the cracks. On the womens side they have tons of gymnasts, but they have very few true extremely talented or even transcendent gymnasts. Yang Wei was probably the closest we'll have to a Nemov for a while.

Levski, you also need to realize that ever since Bela and Mrs. Bela have run the women's olympic camp; they only pick who they like. It doesn't matter who you are, who is your coach, with both of them it comes down to if they like you and they fit in their mind. This is why many WAG coaches just pull out their hair and sometimes for their kids, it's best to just go the collegiate route.

It's not this way in MAG but it is in WAG.

And Neil is bloody awesome, but guess what he teaches a lot of women from a MAG coaching POV which is why he is sort of in his own little place in WAG. His wife is different but Neil is quite a character. He also recognizes coaching gymnastics from a motor skill developmental view instead of merely the elite route. If you ever get to the states, I highly reccomend attending his clinics. I got to work with him at a camp once and it was a pleasure. Besides he is short like me and we got along.

There is also a saying that with some elites you could do simply nothing special and they will shine. That is why they are elite. They have that genetic edge sometimes.

Al Fong and Steve Nunno have an interesting rep from what I remember. I may be confusing Nunno with another coach from Socal though.

Btw, Alicia started at the age of 8, which is still late as far as elites go. She was probably about 9 or 10 when I saw some video of her as a L6. Her bars weren't pretty then either. :?: :!: :? :wink:

Do you think talent really exist? Or, if it exist, can be reached and surpassed by harder work?

Felipe said:

Do you think talent really exist? Or, if it exist, can be reached and surpassed by harder work?

"Talent" is another word for good genetics. So yes. To some level, it can be fostered in gymnastics to the extent of body awareness/proprioceptive ability. However, some girls or guys are just more naturally explosive which is why they do better at things like vault. Some naturally develop strength easier which is why they are good at rings. etc.

It's EXTREMELY hard to have someone who is good at everything because it's hard to find everything in one person when everything is a genetic lottery. Nemov who was one of the greats in men's gymnastics wasn't that strong comparitivitely even though he was a threat to medal on 4-5 events (rings was weakest event, had to make up point differentials with swing moves). Yang Wei was actually a pretty solid AAer because he was smaller with a better strength to bodyweight ratio, but he was only world class on about 3 events.

In every sport or athletic endeavor there will always be hard workers and genetic talents. Unfortunately, no hard worker can surpass a genetic talent who is also a hard worker.

How many TOP level coaches like Vitaly Liukin for example coach from Level 4-6?? Not many is my bet. Coach do you still coach L1-6 boys are you to busy with the higher level athletes?.

Good question. For many years up until last season, I coached all levels of the athletes on my team from the youngest beginner up to my national champion. Now I focus primarily on my older optional athletes and have a competent staff that I oversee who directly work with my youngest athletes.

There is also a saying that with some elites you could do simply nothing special and they will shine. That is why they are elite. They have that genetic edge sometimes.

In your basic sports (track & field, football, baseball, basketball or soccer etc), where raw physical ability is able to overcome an athlete's technical deficiencies, this may be possible. However in a highly technical sport, like competitive gymnastics, this approach will quickly become impossible past a basic level of performance. This is why you so often see talented gymnasts move on to a more knowledgable coach once they have absorbed all that their initial coach was capable of teaching them. As mentioned previously this is not to discount the importance of being genetically blessed, however without proper coaching and preparation that enormous potential will forever remain unrealized.

For example, I was once teaching at a clinic where the coach of a very talented athlete had for several years struggled to teach this athlete to twist his double back off of high bar with no success. In fact both the athlete and the coach had simply come to accept that this was simply a skill that this particular athlete would never be able to learn. Over the course of that 45 minute rotation I taught this athlete a tuck full out (double back tucked with a twist on the second flip), a double layout (two back flips both in a straight body position) and a layout full out (a double layout backwards with a twist on the second flip) :shock:.

Now genetically speaking this previously unsuccessful athlete was already a kinesthetic genius, what he lacked was access to an expert coach to allow him to take full advantage of his incredible talent.

"A great chef is able to take marginal ingredients and create a spectacular feast, while a poor cook can turn the best of ingredients into an inedible mess."

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Nemov who was one of the greats in men's gymnastics wasn't that strong comparitivitely even though he was a threat to medal on 4-5 events (rings was weakest event, had to make up point differentials with swing moves). Yang Wei was actually a pretty solid AAer because he was smaller with a better strength to bodyweight ratio, but he was only world class on about 3 events.

I think it will be a crime to talk about all arounders and natural talent and not mention Vitaly Scherbo, the ultimate example of talent with the olympic medals to back it up. (6 gold medals in Barcelona)

Ido Portal said:

Nemov who was one of the greats in men's gymnastics wasn't that strong comparitivitely even though he was a threat to medal on 4-5 events (rings was weakest event, had to make up point differentials with swing moves). Yang Wei was actually a pretty solid AAer because he was smaller with a better strength to bodyweight ratio, but he was only world class on about 3 events.

I think it will be a crime to talk about all arounders and natural talent and not mention Vitaly Scherbo, the ultimate example of talent with the olympic medals to back it up. (6 gold medals in Barcelona)

Just pulling from my experience. I'm not old enough for that.

HAHAHAHA Leave us old guys alone!!!!!