Further discussion on issues with veganism

Aspirant said:

In which case a diet based on beans and rice should be more than enough protein to thrive on.

 

I happen to agree with Giyom about this simply from experience and that also yes different foods are absorbed at different rates, try a protein bar vs a steak or some sausage, for me the latter takes much longer to digest and so I presume to be absorbed, it all just takes longer.

 

Mercurium also amusing that you are trying to point the religion finger at Ayurveda! Although I agree slightly off topic although not entirely.

 

Yes and no, did you mean to write osteoarthritis? I happen to know a little about both of these but it's too long to go into it here.

No argument about protein there. Provided the amount of beans and rice is sufficient, of course. 

How is that amusing? No, it's actually completely off-topic. In no sense is it relevant whatsoever.

No, I meant osteoporosis. Ignoring calcium or calciferol deficiency, osteoporosis rates are consistent with not exercising enough. There is no literature to suggest any other factor is involved.

crashnburn said:

Fact. The issue here will primarily be of trust in a certain system, framework & source. There is quite a bit of research into ayurvedic stuff, that I've read, but I've gone past that. 

 

The kind of healing and diagnosis I have experienced & seen with Ayurveda & some Ayurvedic Vaidyas/ Doctors has been so far beyond any western medical science I've seen that they have my full trust. I've seen brain tumors & optic nerves & auto immune disorders heal for people where Johns Hopkins docs could not do anything. 

Hence, I have been allopathy free for 5-7 years now. 

 

You can google for articles on mung beans/ kitchari. And if you wish to go to best sources: 

- Charaka Samhita | Ashtanga Sangraha | Ashtanga Hridaya 

- Try to find some good docs/ nutritionists who focus / have studied the above well. 

 

Whats funny is my cousin bought a copy of AH volumes and wow.. it has double digit pages on all kinds of meat from deer to what not and talks about specifics of each impacts the body and how it should/ should not be cooked.

 

The reason that most Vaidyas do not recommended non-veg are certain 'contra-indications' that they cause and veg 'sattvic' options like 'Ghee' are available. 

 

If you want an easy to look up source google up Ayurveda Encyclopedia. The more I read/ learn about it, the more I realize pretty much ALL DIETS & NUTRITIONAL paradigms can FIT INTO its framework, because it is so Fundamental. 

 

But your best proof will be experiential with right guidance. 

Specific to Kitchari/ Khichdi - A billion people who no matter how sick, whether having fever or stomach problems are given Khichdi when sick. All "western doctors" also recommended it - as it is most light, digestible, nutritious & balancing on the system. 

 

All of the above After all it took a few decades for the west to accept the benefits of Yoga & Meditation, why not give its Sister science Ayurveda a chance

Anecdotal evidence and placebo effects.

The autoimmune disease I have has only been cured by metformin and 2DG in mice. Nothing else.

A billion people, yet I've never heard of it. Every 'Western' doctor I have asked recommends toast, bananas and all assortments of other foods before beans.

It didn't take long at all for yoga to be accepted. It's like all other exercise, though definitely an incomplete modality. Yoga misses some fundamental primal movement patterns. Brachiation being the most obvious.

Also, meditation was accepted as soon as enough studies had observed its benefits.

It's not science. When it relies on empirical observations and mathematical proofs, I'll listen.

Giyom said:

Hi Mercurium,

 

Surely, sedentary behaviour is often a major cause for osteoporosis and other bone diseases; sure it's not the only cause also. Look around you, there's quite some active people of different ages suffering from bone issues these days. 

 

As for the height increase, same here. Growth hormones are indeed not the only factor, part of it.

 

As you like references, I'd be interested in your data on height of the past few centuries before the dawning of synthetic growth hormones.

I have never met someone who performs resistance training exhibit weak bones. They just don't exist. And in any case, weaker than normal bones in athletes can always be explained by overtraining. The same happens with immune function. Many elite athletes have compromised immune systems because they train too hard. Their bones are often still denser than sedentary individuals bones though.

Hitchen's Razor. Show a demonstrable link between synthetic hormones in food and growth effects. Moreover, why don't the natural hormones in foods have significant effects? What are the normal doses for synthetic hormones in livestock?

Here's an article: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-are-we-getting-taller/

It largely ignores sexual selection by erroneously dismissing it, but it comes to the same conclusion as most other sources; nutrition. Have you ever been in a building older than 150 years? My head brushes the ceilings and doorways. It's a well-known fact that humans were shorter.

Rayne-William said:

1. Generally speaking, the vegan eating lifestyle can be just as unhealthy as the standard "American" diet.

Speaking honestly, I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not. The proof of what I say works, is the condition of my physical body.

Just as unhealthy, but for different reasons.

Anecdotal evidence. Many people have terrible experiences with vegetarianism. I nearly died.

I'd posit that the fact that height increase is plateauing in recent years is evidence that synthetic hormones aren't affecting the population. Why have we reached a 'height limit', so to speak, if we're consuming more growth hormones? Do those synthetic hormones even survive the hydrochloric acid in the stomach?

Primary tenets of Ayurveda are Balance. Each individual and their system are unique, and unique at any given point in time. 2 people with similar symptoms will be advised different things based on Pulse Diagnosis - Nadi Pariksha - Shastra - Ancient science of deep deep diagnosis. How out of balance they are.. and how their energies are working.. lots of details there in Ayurveda. 

Someone with a strong digestive fire may be able to process Ramen and anothers may not be able to. 

I agree with Pt. 1. But what is the Standard American diet? From now, or the 40s/ 50s?

Part of Americas food problem was its disconnection to "roots" and "food habits" from where people emigrated in the last centuries. Add to that excess manufacturing capacity post WW 2, Frozen TV dinners and Big Food / Pharma lobby & their practices.  

Probably a lot more factors there, so I cant lock down on what is American Diet. 

I would've said a typical vegetarian diet is better than the AD, but thats from a PoV & bias of my experience of a Veg diet. haha.. So, I have seen people eat badly even as veggies. 

Rayne-William said:

1. Generally speaking, the vegan eating lifestyle can be just as unhealthy as the standard "American" diet.

 

The eating lifestyle becomes healthier when one completes the transition from eating primarily the meat alternatives and the faux "cheeses" to relying primarily on fruits, nuts, and vegetables.

 

2. Considering the meals I tend to eat, I am adequately full.

Speaking honestly, I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not. The proof of what I say works, is the condition of my physical body.

To bolster what you said, one primary tenet of Ayurveda is eating things as per - your unique body type/ nature (prakruti), the weather/ season & balancing to both of them & the imbalances that occur. 

Another primary tenet is - cook fresh, eat fresh - Within 48 minutes of cooking eat it. The longer you keep it after the life energy in it dissipates and turns negative - Hence, its not recommned to have stuff with High Shelf Life..  

Raised/ yeasted breads - Bad, Aged Cheeses - especially in excess. ..

White flour screws digestive system ... Unyeasted/ un leavened {non GMO : P } whole wheat breads like Rotis/ Pitas are good.. in certain amount with the spices/ herbs {key for digestion, not just taste} gravy.. vegetables + lentils + beans..

Fresh made Thin crispy Italian pizza base is probably safer than Manufactured commercial yeasted breads. 

Aged cheeses are bad.. really bad & heavily block subtle channels in the body.. Better alternative: Freshly made, short shelf life stuff like fresh ricotta etc. .. these are also nutritious but heavy like Milk, Yogurt.. 

But for all of these.. Digestive system should not be out of whack.. Something allopathy is still far from fixing. 

Rayne-William said:

1. Are trying to trap me with words? A loaf of bread is a processed food item. Baking, broiling, cutting, frying, grilling, mixing, pureeing, searing, steaming,  etc are part of processing "Food" ingredients into a "Meal." 
 

2. Feel free to eat what I eat everyday and find out how full you are. Please keep in mind I am about 5'6",  weigh around 138lb and I have a mesomorph body type. The total number of calories your body needs is different than mine. My breakfast by itself is about 890 calories. My pre and post workout meals combined is 480 calories. My lunch is 320 My typical dinner is 360 calories. Excluding the handfuls of raw nuts I consume and other fruits, my total caloric intake is about 2050 calories.

There is a deeper body of science & knowledge on these body types.. : - ) look up Vata, Pitta, Kapha - its where the 3 types came from. 

Good point.. the word 'processing' has wide connotations Question is which 'process' works well for what.. : - ) 

E.g.

Coriander leaves are typically sprinkled raw  on top / or made into raw hand/ stone ground chutney paste  

Coriander seeds & powder are typically dried/ ground/ powdered

Fennel leaves cooked, Fennel seeds soaked

Spinach...never Raw.. always cooked

Mung beans.. soaked for a bit, and can be cooked easy

Kidney Beans & Garbanzos/ Chic peas.. Soaked overnight/ for hours.. Then cooked for longer to alleviate the gases & heaviness

And mandatory for digestion.. lightly fried in 1-2 tbsp - little asafoetida, cumin seeds/ powder, and corainder.. 

Try having KB or GB/CP any other way and Gas : - ) 

There's a whole section of science on how each herb/ fruit/ veggies affects you and should be used. 

Mercurium said:

It doesn't vary as much as you think, and even so, that's irrelevant. The time a food takes to pass through the digestive system is related to the amount of fibre or roughage present.

 

Religion relies on dogma and belief without proof. Science relies on criticism, evidence and mathematics. Science is also skeptical of everything, even itself. They are polar opposites. In any case, that's a topic for a different forum altogether. Religion has yet to explain how the digestive system works, yet scientific enquiry has, so I think it's safe to rely on scientific discussions with respects to vegetarianism and diet, yes?

The time it takes is dependent on:

- Digestive powers - dependent on Season/ Weather - and time of day.. Digestive Energies are connected to the Sun.. 

- What was consumed {light: cucumber, apple, water melon; heavy: chick peas, cottage cheese}, how much it was processed, how it was cooked.. lots of factors..

- Yes - Fiber also in right amount.. But also right balance between "Moisture & Dryness" inside the gut Notice the dryness or wetness of your stool, at different times over an year.. 

PS: Excess dryness.. leads to hard stools.. and plethora of IBS type issues. 

Religion - Yes & No.

You know why Meat + milk is anti kosher, why milk + lemon is bad? Why onion + milk will eventually lead to skin & blood disorders.. 

A lot of what people follow, comes from ancient science.. The more i've learnt about Ayurveda & how "old cultures" eat across the globe, the more I see there's a body of knowledge that was there..  that modern science looks at as if its voodoo. 

With all things, awareness & discretion. 

Mercurium said:

Anecdotal evidence and placebo effects.

 

The autoimmune disease I have has only been cured by metformin and 2DG in mice. Nothing else.

 

A billion people, yet I've never heard of it. Every 'Western' doctor I have asked recommends toast, bananas and all assortments of other foods before beans.

 

It didn't take long at all for yoga to be accepted. It's like all other exercise, though definitely an incomplete modality. Yoga misses some fundamental primal movement patterns. Brachiation being the most obvious.

Also, meditation was accepted as soon as enough studies had observed its benefits.

 

It's not science. When it relies on empirical observations and mathematical proofs, I'll listen.

Mercurium - I am here to share what I've learnt & experienced. If you want to get into an ego war.. of you are right and I am wrong.. Please ignore what I am sharing - Live how you wish. Follow the science you want. I grew up with a mix of western & eastern knowledge and over the years.. and experience have chosen Ayurveda as the fundamental framework I do not wish to prove my experienced of it to you; who seems hell bent on winning and knocking it down. I am sharing purely out of love for people on the forum.. as I've learnt a lot here. Best wishes : - ) 

You went to Beans - Most beans are heavier.. But Mung is not. Read more about khicdi receipes & try it. Or let it go  

Yes, its common knowledge in India {just like chicken soup is in the west} or anyone whose deep into yoga. So, I replied as someone mentioned Khichdi - Try it or ignore it - Choice is yours : - ) 

Every auto immune issue is unique in its nature.. as each individual & bodys balance & imbalances are - thats Ayurvedic principle

That's the issue - you/ most of the west take yoga as a system of exercise only its not - 8 limbs of yoga - and the goal is something else. The second last limb of Yoga is Dhyana - Meditation. http://www.expressionsofspirit.com/yoga/eight-limbs.htm

If you are more into physical side only - Lot of pillar gymnastics - malkhamb and old strongman/ wrestler & martial arts info. Mace

http://rosstraining.com/blog/2012/04/20/the-encyclopedia-of-indian-physical-culture/

http://physicalculturestudy.com/2014/12/22/the-encyclopedia-of-indian-physical-culture/

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/04/23/train-like-an-ancient-hindu-warrior-the-steel-mace-workout/

Let me put it this way, gravity existed before Newton discovered it/ wrote a proof on it. 

Meditation was studied, known, experienced & practiced for 1000s of years before your loved western studies put it into PDFs. 

When its a known science for 1000s of years there is no interest getting your stamp of approval. 

My goal is not to sit and prove stuff to you - I've done enough research, experienced a lot.. Not one anecdotal experience.. decades of numbers of people.. and experiences. 

And since you want studies.. there are tons out there.. if you want look for it as I did.. try it out.. as I did. : - )

Ignore the body of knowledge that I shared with you.. You are free to choose. I am just sharing not here to get your Stamp of Approval. 

PS: If you nearly died going veg, i'd say thats anecdotal evidence ha ha! kidding.. 

Another tenet of Ayurveda - never do anything "abrupt" or "cold turkey" it shocks your system. Whether veg, non veg or whatever unique flavor of paleo, ketogenic etc. So, try it with right guidance.. or ignore.. & let go  

As Coach says.. gradual, well guided and progressive steps towards adapting to new things. 

Mercurium said:

I'd posit that the fact that height increase is plateauing in recent years is evidence that synthetic hormones aren't affecting the population. Why have we reached a 'height limit', so to speak, if we're consuming more growth hormones? Do those synthetic hormones even survive the hydrochloric acid in the stomach?

Well you are wrong, Soviet hormone experimentation in search of the "super protelarian" during WW2 already showed that hormone therapy can well surpass presupposed genetic/hereditary limitations in height and size, in fact they created a series of uncontrollable monsters, something out of a marvel comic.

Nothing compared to the hormones in our food of course, just a point.

Mercurium, friend, you misunderstood me on several points.  Let me clarify some.

First of all, with you I share a love for truth and to the extent modern science fosters knowing, I’m all for it.

I respect you for going beyond the realms of ungrounded religious dogmas. That is an important step in knowing deeper truths.

That said, I also invite you to go beyond the dogmas and limitations of modern science. As much as spiritual knowledge can be converted into rigid belief systems, also scientific assumptions and frameworks can keep one locked within the realm of the senses and the framework of logic which reaches only this far.

From what you write about yoga, I can see you haven’t gone much into it, if anything. Yoga and Ayurveda are the sciences of science. The basic premise for any yogi is to not accept anything, not believe anything. Only to experiment with tools and discover truth for oneself.

If you listened to some of the podcasts and interviews with coach Sommer you will have noticed his success stems from long experience and finding out what works on the field, taking what works from logic, but even more from what he has seen working with his own experience with students. This is also the approach taken in yoga. For the sake of your own understanding and expansion I gently, but firmly encourage  you to revise the connotation of dogma you have with yoga. I used to think like you do 'till I researched it more thoroughly. It is good not to blindly accept what we don't know, it is wise not to assume about things we don't know.

If science is your preferred trusted source for knowledge, go research at the highest levels, not just your average professor. Einstein and like minded geniuses.

You may be surprised what they found (and perhaps even what they eat). You will see them pointing at the limits of science and drawing inspiration to find answers from beyond the framework of the senses. Modern science takes the basic 5 senses as the ultimate tool for understanding the world we live in. It has progressed immensely with this methodology with the dawning of sophisticated technology. It has also already been reaching beyond gradually and making amazing discoveries that confirm the findings of the great sages of past and modern days. Just to give you one example, modern scientists in the seventies have been able to show that all matter is energy in movement, tiny particles that few souls on this planet are able to perceive in perpetual movement. This was already known thousands of years ago by sages having deep understanding of the world within and without. They didn’t have the technology to show it the way it is shown today and in those times, the technology would probably not have made their findings more credible anyway. These days, as we make the empirical sensory observable into the highest (“dogma”), scientists operating from that level are the ones more accepted. Which is fine, yet pretty limited. The urge of humanity to evolve beyond its limitations gradually bring it beyond the realms of this mindset.

Second, as for the point on anecdotal evidence, if there is even just only one anecdote that shows the accepted findings not universal, it is an indication of the limitedness of the scope of truthfulness in the accepted findings. Now, when we’re talking vegetarianism and veganism, one would have to be quite blind or unwilling to see to pose that these cases are anecdotic.

We can play safe and stay with our current perceptions. This is hardly scientific. A real sciencist at heart looks everywhere, leaves no stone unturned and is keen to go beyond his current understandings. This is where the cutting edge science comes forth.

Third, as for the comment and article on height you shared, for which I thank you, it is not at odds with what I previously stated, actually confirming what I suspected. These are not raw data for the long term history on human height, so the height increase talked about is a pretty recent phenomenon (200 years is short when we’re talking evolution), with many reasons for its occurence, one of which is nutrition, and there are others as previously mentioned.

Best wishes for 2016

Guys I thought I might just add that many of us here are not Yoga and/or Ayurveda practitioners, and it would be nice if any information on these systems (because really that is what they are) with regards to vegan/vegetarian lifestyles are presented in laymen terms or accessible to those not interested in yogic/spiritual pursuits but Gymnastic pursuits!

It is also important to note that Western medicine tends to be purely objective while Eastern is more subjective, but really the two are not exclusive and ultimately at the end of the line subjective to one's experience/condition.

So I quite agree with this statement from Giyom and also crashnburn and others.

I used to think like you do 'till I researched it more thoroughly. It is good not to blindly accept what we don't know, it is wise not to assume about things we don't know.

 

Aspirant said:

Guys I thought I might just add that many of us here are not Yoga and/or Ayurveda practitioners, and it would be nice if any information on these systems (because really that is what they are) with regards to vegan/vegetarian lifestyles are presented in laymen terms or accessible to those not interested in yogic/spiritual pursuits but Gymnastic pursuits!

 

It is also important to note that Western medicine tends to be purely objective while Eastern is more subjective, but really the two are not exclusive and ultimately at the end of the line subjective to one's experience/condition.

 

So I quite agree with this statement from Giyom and also crashnburn and others.

Hi Aspirant!

Spiritual pursuits can foster many tangible endeavours, including the gymnastic ambitions!

Check out the case of Dan Millman to give just one example, documented in the movie Peaceful Warrior and book Way of the Peaceful Warrior.

I'm happy to offer clarifications for those interested; just ask.

crashnburn said:

 

The time it takes is dependent on:

- Digestive powers - dependent on Season/ Weather - and time of day.. Digestive Energies are connected to the Sun.. 

- What was consumed {light: cucumber, apple, water melon; heavy: chick peas, cottage cheese}, how much it was processed, how it was cooked.. lots of factors..

- Yes - Fiber also in right amount.. But also right balance between "Moisture & Dryness" inside the gut Notice the dryness or wetness of your stool, at different times over an year.. 

PS: Excess dryness.. leads to hard stools.. and plethora of IBS type issues. 

 

Religion - Yes & No.

You know why Meat + milk is anti kosher, why milk + lemon is bad? Why onion + milk will eventually lead to skin & blood disorders.. 

A lot of what people follow, comes from ancient science.. The more i've learnt about Ayurveda & how "old cultures" eat across the globe, the more I see there's a body of knowledge that was there..  that modern science looks at as if its voodoo. 

With all things, awareness & discretion. 

Mercurium - I am here to share what I've learnt & experienced. If you want to get into an ego war.. of you are right and I am wrong.. Please ignore what I am sharing - Live how you wish. Follow the science you want. I grew up with a mix of western & eastern knowledge and over the years.. and experience have chosen Ayurveda as the fundamental framework I do not wish to prove my experienced of it to you; who seems hell bent on winning and knocking it down. I am sharing purely out of love for people on the forum.. as I've learnt a lot here. Best wishes : - ) 

 

You went to Beans - Most beans are heavier.. But Mung is not. Read more about khicdi receipes & try it. Or let it go

Yes, its common knowledge in India {just like chicken soup is in the west} or anyone whose deep into yoga. So, I replied as someone mentioned Khichdi - Try it or ignore it - Choice is yours : - ) 

 

Every auto immune issue is unique in its nature.. as each individual & bodys balance & imbalances are - thats Ayurvedic principle

 

That's the issue - you/ most of the west take yoga as a system of exercise only its not - 8 limbs of yoga - and the goal is something else. The second last limb of Yoga is Dhyana - Meditation. http://www.expressionsofspirit.com/yoga/eight-limbs.htm

 

If you are more into physical side only - Lot of pillar gymnastics - malkhamb and old strongman/ wrestler & martial arts info. Mace

http://rosstraining.com/blog/2012/04/20/the-encyclopedia-of-indian-physical-culture/

http://physicalculturestudy.com/2014/12/22/the-encyclopedia-of-indian-physical-culture/

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/04/23/train-like-an-ancient-hindu-warrior-the-steel-mace-workout/

 

Let me put it this way, gravity existed before Newton discovered it/ wrote a proof on it. 

Meditation was studied, known, experienced & practiced for 1000s of years before your loved western studies put it into PDFs. 

 

When its a known science for 1000s of years there is no interest getting your stamp of approval. 

 

My goal is not to sit and prove stuff to you - I've done enough research, experienced a lot.. Not one anecdotal experience.. decades of numbers of people.. and experiences. 

 

And since you want studies.. there are tons out there.. if you want look for it as I did.. try it out.. as I did. : - )

 

Ignore the body of knowledge that I shared with you.. You are free to choose. I am just sharing not here to get your Stamp of Approval. 

 

PS: If you nearly died going veg, i'd say thats anecdotal evidence ha ha! kidding.. 

Another tenet of Ayurveda - never do anything "abrupt" or "cold turkey" it shocks your system. Whether veg, non veg or whatever unique flavor of paleo, ketogenic etc. So, try it with right guidance.. or ignore.. & let go

 

As Coach says.. gradual, well guided and progressive steps towards adapting to new things. 

Quite the opposite, actually. Science is incredibly interested in such things. However, issues arise when the scientific method is applied to such beliefs, and they fall short of the mark. Other aspects are also inconsistent with centuries of mathematics and physics discoveries. Much like when 'psychics' are tested in controlled conditions, all of a sudden their 'vibe' is gone and they can't perform as they said they could. Science doesn't take unfounded beliefs and label them as all "incorrect" or "false", it simply has yet to see evidence of those beliefs being true. Furthermore, I don't see yogis walking around with sensitive equipment to detect these supposed "energies" when thousands of physicists and tools such as the Large Hadron Collider have never discovered these things that many belief systems claim should exist.

Science doesn't even get it's own stamp of approval. It is constantly critical of itself. Many belief systems aren't self-critical at all, they're often hypocritical and rely on confirmation bias and human observation, rather than mechanical observation (such as detectors). 

Often, anecdotal belief systems can discover something, but it's almost always just that it happens, and the supposed reasons why it happens don't stand up to scrutiny.

Ayurveda cannot be a science because it does not rely on mathematics and isn't self-critical. Hence, I can't take it seriously unless it has been formally demonstrated to withstand scrutiny under controlled conditions time and time again. It might be a hypothetical science, but it is far from a theoretical science. As soon as Yogis go around trying to prove each other wrong every 5 seconds, it'll become more credible and the belief system could change quite radically. Even science is flawed. It's prone to the Fallacy of Induction. That's why mathematics is so important; it uses mathematical induction which is comparable to deduction which is hermetic. Philosophers often say that you can only be certain of something when the premises are known a priori and the conclusion has been reached deductively. Science cannot fit into this framework every time, so science being critical of itself is paramount.

You're right, that is anecdotal evidence. However, I was using my personal experience to counter the claim that someone else's personal experience dictates my experiences. 

In any case, thank you for the links  You have certainly opened my eyes to a new culture, so thank you 

Aspirant said:

Well you are wrong, Soviet hormone experimentation in search of the "super protelarian" during WW2 already showed that hormone therapy can well surpass presupposed genetic/hereditary limitations in height and size, in fact they created a series of uncontrollable monsters, something out of a marvel comic.

 

Nothing compared to the hormones in our food of course, just a point.

You misunderstand the role of genetics in the body. Genes determine the sensitivity of hormone receptors in the body. If your genes dictate that those receptors be insensitive, you can expose yourself to all the hormones you like; that won't affect the receptors if they're completely saturated, and the effect on your own biology would be minimal.

Please cite that if you can. It sounds like an urban legend. To my knowledge, selective breeding has born more freaks of nature than any hormone trials.

Giyom said:

Mercurium, friend, you misunderstood me on several points.  Let me clarify some.

 

First of all, with you I share a love for truth and to the extent modern science fosters knowing, I’m all for it.

I respect you for going beyond the realms of ungrounded religious dogmas. That is an important step in knowing deeper truths.

 

That said, I also invite you to go beyond the dogmas and limitations of modern science. As much as spiritual knowledge can be converted into rigid belief systems, also scientific assumptions and frameworks can keep one locked within the realm of the senses and the framework of logic which reaches only this far.

From what you write about yoga, I can see you haven’t gone much into it, if anything. Yoga and Ayurveda are the sciences of science. The basic premise for any yogi is to not accept anything, not believe anything. Only to experiment with tools and discover truth for oneself.

If you listened to some of the podcasts and interviews with coach Sommer you will have noticed his success stems from long experience and finding out what works on the field, taking what works from logic, but even more from what he has seen working with his own experience with students. This is also the approach taken in yoga. For the sake of your own understanding and expansion I gently, but firmly encourage  you to revise the connotation of dogma you have with yoga. I used to think like you do 'till I researched it more thoroughly. It is good not to blindly accept what we don't know, it is wise not to assume about things we don't know.

 

If science is your preferred trusted source for knowledge, go research at the highest levels, not just your average professor. Einstein and like minded geniuses.

You may be surprised what they found (and perhaps even what they eat). You will see them pointing at the limits of science and drawing inspiration to find answers from beyond the framework of the senses. Modern science takes the basic 5 senses as the ultimate tool for understanding the world we live in. It has progressed immensely with this methodology with the dawning of sophisticated technology. It has also already been reaching beyond gradually and making amazing discoveries that confirm the findings of the great sages of past and modern days. Just to give you one example, modern scientists in the seventies have been able to show that all matter is energy in movement, tiny particles that few souls on this planet are able to perceive in perpetual movement. This was already known thousands of years ago by sages having deep understanding of the world within and without. They didn’t have the technology to show it the way it is shown today and in those times, the technology would probably not have made their findings more credible anyway. These days, as we make the empirical sensory observable into the highest (“dogma”), scientists operating from that level are the ones more accepted. Which is fine, yet pretty limited. The urge of humanity to evolve beyond its limitations gradually bring it beyond the realms of this mindset.

 

 

Second, as for the point on anecdotal evidence, if there is even just only one anecdote that shows the accepted findings not universal, it is an indication of the limitedness of the scope of truthfulness in the accepted findings. Now, when we’re talking vegetarianism and veganism, one would have to be quite blind or unwilling to see to pose that these cases are anecdotic.

We can play safe and stay with our current perceptions. This is hardly scientific. A real sciencist at heart looks everywhere, leaves no stone unturned and is keen to go beyond his current understandings. This is where the cutting edge science comes forth.

 

Third, as for the comment and article on height you shared, for which I thank you, it is not at odds with what I previously stated, actually confirming what I suspected. These are not raw data for the long term history on human height, so the height increase talked about is a pretty recent phenomenon (200 years is short when we’re talking evolution), with many reasons for its occurence, one of which is nutrition, and there are others as previously mentioned.

 

Best wishes for 2016

I'm aware that science and formal philosophy have their limitations, but they're the only systems that don't crumple under their own fallacies or errors. 

That's exactly my point. Discovering for one's self means that every bias you have will sway and influence your observations. That's why science relies on complex equipment. The human brain isn't designed to understand the universe; it's designed to find food, a mate and shelter. That's why we build set technology to allow us to observe phenomena in nature without filtering it through our own phaneron. It's also important to criticise beliefs, and I have yet to hear of a Yogi criticising meditation practices or the existence of prana, et cetera.

Well, there are actually a lot more than 5 senses, and using scientific enquiry we have discovered that all of those senses are prone to illusion and error. Science does not rely on the senses at all, it relies on equipment that we have built using our knowledge of mathematics. Even proprioception, the key sense for movement, is prone to mistakes. There are many proprioceptive illusions or tricks one can perform to make someone feel as if their legs are trapped in the ground or feel as if they are levitating, et cetera. And if these senses are so easy to deceive, they cannot be trusted.

But I'd imagine Coach Sommer didn't have any biases or interests in one modality over another unless he observed concrete reason to. For Coach Sommer to develop such a system, he would have to be critical of everything and immediately remove what didn't quite work. I'm sure he can back me up on this. That kind of self-critique I think is what makes his system successful. If it doesn't work, it goes. If it does, it stays. Many belief systems practice dogma, and so any questioning of the tenets results in punishment or even being ignored. Even so, Coach Sommer's program relies on repetition numbers in base 10 for mastery (15, 10, 5). The body doesn't operate on a base system, so I think if Coach Sommer really investigated optimum repetition ranges for certain goals, he might even be able to improve his system further. In all likelihood he already has, and the exact number of repetitions doesn't really have much of an effect on performance.

Appeal to Authority Fallacy. Just because scientists are great doesn't make their claims infallible. Isaac Newton made some claims that turned out to be incorrect, but he is still considered a great pioneer for science. In any case, all scientists are skeptical of science. That's the point; skepticism.

Cherry-picking fallacy. It's sheer luck that some old sages could make guesses that turned out to be true. If someone who has never seen the sky guesses it to be blue, that doesn't mean he has some kind of higher knowledge compared to everyone else. Many ancient sages have also made ridiculous claims that have been proven false at every turn. Even so, nobody knew what energy was before modern science, so it was some other "life force" belief that was twisted to represent some 'energy'. That's why many belief systems today speak of "energies" that are completely undetectable by any scientific equipment.

Unfortunately, 'cutting-edge science' isn't taken very seriously, because it's synonymous with "concepts with little to no evidence". Real, concrete science has been tested innumerable times and has a mathematical framework to support those empirical observations (what's known as a "theory"). The reason their is no "nutrition theory" is because we don't know enough about the body to categorically claim that such and such a diet is 'perfect' or 'optimum'.

Yes, there other factors explaining the growth, but not synthetic hormones, as they didn't exist 200 years ago. They didn't even exist 100 years ago.

This is common sense. Here also, more attention will be given to someone who is actually starting out working on foundation 1 rather than someone discussing endlessly whether foundation 1 will work or not. The results come when practices are started, same with yogic practices. Which type of practices gives best results, depends both on the practioner's inclinations and the level of expertise of the coach (often called guru in eastern yogic circles). Guru means teacher and eventually a real guru's purpose is to make you into your own master. There may be a long road to that stage. Just like most on this forum will keep coach Sommer throughout their life as at any stage they have reached they can still learn from him.

My apologies Coach - This is the last I will indulge on someone who likes to BE RIGHT. I will share with those who are Interested or Curious. 

Mercurial - Very politely, Lets agree to disagree and go separate ways.  I realized that no matter what or how much I write hear, you will not listen with an open mind. Waste of time & energy for both parties. 

Share what you want, I'll share from my experience and learning of Ayurveda and stay off each others toes. : - )

If you wish to read and find recent studies & experiences done on the Ayurvedic body of knowledge, please do it on your own. There are tons of PDFs & Papers out there - I am not going to do it for you. 

Don't take it, but have the decency & respect to not call it - placebo, anecdotal, hypothetical - without doing the above for a few years. I've spent decades on it. 

There is a fundamental: Do not criticize anything beyond your belief system, without first studying it completely to the level the other party has. 

Simple way forward.. Ignore my responses on Ayurvedic fundamentals - Given your responses I see this as pointless waste and going off topic here and Coach will not approve. 

You are free to share your experiences of nearly dying as a veggie, when a population of Billion in India thrive. I will ignore. 

PS: 

Someone whose Optic nerve was permanently damaged by a neuro-toxin from a building chemical, whose children: 

- Handle, major sports league - think NFL, NBA, MLB etc. 

- Own a few buildings in Manhattan - 

- Had access to the best docs across DC, CA, Hopkins etc & were told the Toxin was still embedded inside and had damaged the optic nerve. ..

.. the body was made to eliminate the toxin slowly.. it was made to heal..  very uniquely.. there is no magic or chemical to be sold..

 Sorry, that is not a placebo

I had "bleeding" several times last few years in my digestive system and their diagnosis of it by just reading my pulse with their fingers was so amazing, the details I cant even share here. You'd think it was magic. 

They say your pulse carries so much information, very few people can read it completely. 

They pointed out to me every injury/ accident and unhealed bones/ joints from 2 decades. Some I did not even remember, and some I did not even know. 

I can cite details over details of cases like this over several decades.. But it wont matter to you. So lets leave it at that. 

Why is it hard to find love for this at the AMA etc.. Pharma lobby.. wants to sell.. monetize.. 

And when the British empire came.. they wanted to wipe away as much as possible.. and did.. thats a whole another tragedy of wars & occupations

There are few Ayurvedic fundamentals:

- Your food is medicine and your medicine is food

- There is nothing that the body-mind complex cannot heal as the understand of building all cells resides inside the cells of the body - Kindling that is a whole another discussion.. way out of scope of this thread.. 

- All dis-eases first start in the mind and then manifest into the body, and the imbalances aggravate over type

- The body is very adaptive, but that varies hugely from culture to culture, time & place and every individual

- Genetics & Genomics related - No two people are given same medicine for same issue just because... without due understanding of what is Unique to that persons Pulse, Out of Balance and whats need to bring in balance. 

Understanding the unique information coded in each persons pulse is a freaking brilliant science. Try it or leave it. Lets not debate this further on GB forums. And trust me, I was blown away when I started my journey down this rabbit hole.. took me years to Believe. 

Happy New Year:) 

Go train. Damn guys! Stop being nerds that argue pointless stuff and go get some ring strength.

crashnburn said:

My apologies Coach - This is the last I will indulge on someone who likes to BE RIGHT. I will share with those who are Interested or Curious. 

 

Mercurial - Very politely, Lets agree to disagree and go separate ways.  I realized that no matter what or how much I write hear, you will not listen with an open mind. Waste of time & energy for both parties. 

 

Share what you want, I'll share from my experience and learning of Ayurveda and stay off each others toes. : - )

 

If you wish to read and find recent studies & experiences done on the Ayurvedic body of knowledge, please do it on your own. There are tons of PDFs & Papers out there - I am not going to do it for you. 

 

Don't take it, but have the decency & respect to not call it - placebo, anecdotal, hypothetical - without doing the above for a few years. I've spent decades on it. 

 

There is a fundamental: Do not criticize anything beyond your belief system, without first studying it completely to the level the other party has. 

 

Simple way forward.. Ignore my responses on Ayurvedic fundamentals - Given your responses I see this as pointless waste and going off topic here and Coach will not approve. 

 

You are free to share your experiences of nearly dying as a veggie, when a population of Billion in India thrive. I will ignore. 

 

PS: 

Someone whose Optic nerve was permanently damaged by a neuro-toxin from a building chemical, whose children: 

- Handle, major sports league - think NFL, NBA, MLB etc. 

- Own a few buildings in Manhattan - 

- Had access to the best docs across DC, CA, Hopkins etc & were told the Toxin was still embedded inside and had damaged the optic nerve. ..

.. the body was made to eliminate the toxin slowly.. it was made to heal..  very uniquely.. there is no magic or chemical to be sold..

 Sorry, that is not a placebo

 

I had "bleeding" several times last few years in my digestive system and their diagnosis of it by just reading my pulse with their fingers was so amazing, the details I cant even share here. You'd think it was magic. 

They say your pulse carries so much information, very few people can read it completely. 

They pointed out to me every injury/ accident and unhealed bones/ joints from 2 decades. Some I did not even remember, and some I did not even know. 

 

I can cite details over details of cases like this over several decades.. But it wont matter to you. So lets leave it at that. 

 

Why is it hard to find love for this at the AMA etc.. Pharma lobby.. wants to sell.. monetize.. 

And when the British empire came.. they wanted to wipe away as much as possible.. and did.. thats a whole another tragedy of wars & occupations

 

There are few Ayurvedic fundamentals:

- Your food is medicine and your medicine is food

- There is nothing that the body-mind complex cannot heal as the understand of building all cells resides inside the cells of the body - Kindling that is a whole another discussion.. way out of scope of this thread.. 

- All dis-eases first start in the mind and then manifest into the body, and the imbalances aggravate over type

- The body is very adaptive, but that varies hugely from culture to culture, time & place and every individual

- Genetics & Genomics related - No two people are given same medicine for same issue just because... without due understanding of what is Unique to that persons Pulse, Out of Balance and whats need to bring in balance. 

 

Understanding the unique information coded in each persons pulse is a freaking brilliant science. Try it or leave it. Lets not debate this further on GB forums. And trust me, I was blown away when I started my journey down this rabbit hole.. took me years to Believe. 

 

Happy New Year:) 

That's your insecurity, not your intellect talking. I dislike being right, I honestly do. Being wrong is a fantastic experience because it's one of discovery and can often be humbling. That doesn't mean I blindly run into belief systems that I 'like'. Being right is boring because what you think of as the 'truth' gets a bit stale and never changes.

My mind is open to evidence; I haven't seen any. If you can provide links to instances where Ayurveda beliefs have been observed, I will gladly read and discuss them.

You are welcome to share your beliefs and opinions as you so wish. That's freedom of speech! I would never seek to rob you of that. 

There is no "decency" or "respect" involved. Criticism is criticism. I'm not calling you stupid or even ignorant. I'm simply providing potential explanations. You are always welcome to criticise me, in fact I encourage it. I find it disrespectful to not criticise. 

That is completely against everything science stands for. That only 'some' people are qualified to criticise. That is dogma; where people without authority are not allowed to ask questions. This is exactly why I have an issue with it being called a 'science' when it doesn't ascribe to the scientific method. I should be allowed to criticise any beliefs, even with zero knowledge on the matter, just like you are allowed to (and I encourage you to) question scientific principles, even if you don't quite understand them.

That's exactly what I said at the start 

You misunderstand what I meant then. I was stating that vegetarianism isn't for everyone (like myself). I never said that countless others couldn't work with it. I'm very open to the fact that vegetarianism works very well for lots of people. In fact, it's almost required for people who suffer from MSUD.

You're right, that isn't a placebo, but it falls under both cherry-picking fallacy and confirmation bias. I'm sure I could find endless lists of people who died after being treated with 'Eastern' medicine. It's also possible that the issue resolved itself. There are cases of vicious cancers disappearing in some patients, without some religious healer present. Unless you can critically demonstrate the exact way in which the treatment helped, it could be anything. You can't say, "We prayed, he got better, it worked". That's known as Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc. "We gave him orange juice, his cancer disappeared, orange juice cures cancer".

Make sure those people don't have access to your medical records (they most likely do; they're surprisingly easy to get your hands on if you're 'qualified' in some way). Also check if they use Cold Reading tactics.

I wish you a happy new year too. I hope you don't take my criticisms as insult in future. It's simply due process for real discoveries. If you see me posting something you disagree with, please criticise the crap out of it!  I simply rely on the scientific method, because it's been shown to work, and if I was to do as you do which is rely on personal observations, I would definitely screw something up because of my own biases. I'm not saying you would, but I know that I, personally, am incapable of observing complex phenomena and describing them using my brain alone, because ultimately I am only human.

And as Jeff mentioned just before me, "Go train. Damn guys!"