Milk

slizzardman said:

The fear is that the farms don't properly clean their equipment or cow udders. There just aren't anywhere near enough safety personnel or money to pay them for non-pasteurized milk to really be safe, you're talking about an awful lot of small farms that would have to be checked on a very, very regular basis whether that means testing the milk itself or having very frequent unscheduled and unwarned inspections of the facility.

If everything was kept clean it would be fine, but the danger outweighs the relatively small benefit of not denaturing the lactase enzyme.

I get the next best thing, which is grass fed non-homogenized milk that is pasteurized at 145 degrees. The least denatured milk on the legal market.

THey can't even inspect the giant slaughterhouses, and how many are there? Not that many...

The FDA, says “raw milk, no matter how carefully produced, may be unsafe.†More than 1,000 people, including two who died, got sick from raw milk or cheese made from raw milk from 1998 to May 2005, according to the most recent count from the federal Centers for Disease Control.

So 2 people die but the whole thing is outlawed. But cigarettes which kill millions are not??

Is there something in common ... B I G B U S I N E S S perhaps?

FutureisNow said:

slizzardman said:

The fear is that the farms don't properly clean their equipment or cow udders. There just aren't anywhere near enough safety personnel or money to pay them for non-pasteurized milk to really be safe, you're talking about an awful lot of small farms that would have to be checked on a very, very regular basis whether that means testing the milk itself or having very frequent unscheduled and unwarned inspections of the facility.

If everything was kept clean it would be fine, but the danger outweighs the relatively small benefit of not denaturing the lactase enzyme.

I get the next best thing, which is grass fed non-homogenized milk that is pasteurized at 145 degrees. The least denatured milk on the legal market.

THey can't even inspect the giant slaughterhouses, and how many are there? Not that many...

The FDA, says “raw milk, no matter how carefully produced, may be unsafe.†More than 1,000 people, including two who died, got sick from raw milk or cheese made from raw milk from 1998 to May 2005, according to the most recent count from the federal Centers for Disease Control.

So 2 people die but the whole thing is outlawed. But cigarettes which kill millions are not??

Is there something in common ... B I G B U S I N E S S perhaps?

The FDA mandate specifically excludes all chronic toxins, so if it can't kill you fast it doesn't get regulated.

slizzardman said:

FutureisNow said:

slizzardman said:

The fear is that the farms don't properly clean their equipment or cow udders. There just aren't anywhere near enough safety personnel or money to pay them for non-pasteurized milk to really be safe, you're talking about an awful lot of small farms that would have to be checked on a very, very regular basis whether that means testing the milk itself or having very frequent unscheduled and unwarned inspections of the facility.

If everything was kept clean it would be fine, but the danger outweighs the relatively small benefit of not denaturing the lactase enzyme.

I get the next best thing, which is grass fed non-homogenized milk that is pasteurized at 145 degrees. The least denatured milk on the legal market.

THey can't even inspect the giant slaughterhouses, and how many are there? Not that many...

The FDA, says “raw milk, no matter how carefully produced, may be unsafe.†More than 1,000 people, including two who died, got sick from raw milk or cheese made from raw milk from 1998 to May 2005, according to the most recent count from the federal Centers for Disease Control.

So 2 people die but the whole thing is outlawed. But cigarettes which kill millions are not??

Is there something in common ... B I G B U S I N E S S perhaps?

The FDA mandate specifically excludes all chronic toxins, so if it can't kill you fast it doesn't get regulated.

Really?? How convenient

Slizzardman many of the outbreaks are blamed on raw milk without reason. An interesting book is "The untold story of milk", puts an interesting perspective out on the amount of politics involved in this stuff.

Razz said:

Slizzardman many of the outbreaks are blamed on raw milk without reason. An interesting book is "The untold story of milk", puts an interesting perspective out on the amount of politics involved in this stuff.

I don't disagree with that, but there are legitimately several small ones each year in the US that ARE from raw milk, and it is a pretty universal constant that the main factor is dirty equipment or dirty udders, both of which are fairly easily preventable with proper sanitation procedures. Unfortunately, when the cows or milking devices aren't clean we tend to see the occasional problem.

I can't say with any degree of certainty what is happening anywhere else, but I know this much for a fact.

Raw milk itself is fine, just like raw eggs. The e. coli comes from the egg shell or the udder skin or the milking equipment and not from the actual egg white or yolk or the milk itself, and that fact goes completely unspoken. It is the condition of production equipment and animal living quarters, combined with lack of consistent sanitation of udders, that is the problem.

Edit: I know that Avidin is an issue with eggs and riboflavin absorption, and that egg protein is more absorb-able when cooked, I just mean that safety-wise the two actual food products themselves, meaning what is inside the egg membrane and the actual milk itself, are 100% safe.

slizzardman said:

I don't disagree with that, but there are legitimately several small ones each year in the US that ARE from raw milk, and it is a pretty universal constant that the main factor is dirty equipment or dirty udders, both of which are fairly easily preventable with proper sanitation procedures. Unfortunately, when the cows or milking devices aren't clean we tend to see the occasional problem.

I can't say with any degree of certainty what is happening anywhere else, but I know this much for a fact.

I remember reading somewhere(perhaps a weston price article...so in no way unbiased) that even if there were a very small amount of e-coli outbreaks from raw milk(I don't think the article even conceded this much), that there are MUCH more outbreaks from unwashed vegetables/unclean conditions not associated with farms or raw milk. I believe we are, generally speaking, talking plane crash to car crash probabilities here(.0004% vs. .02%) in reference to raw milk related e-coli vs. other outbreaks. , so context is important.

http://www.foodrenegade.com/government- ... milk-safe/

"Thanks to a recent survey by the Centers for Disease control, we finally have the numbers we need to determine the statistical safety of drinking raw milk. Turns out, raw milk really is safer than just about any other food out there — including spinach, peanut butter, and eggs."

“Using government figures for foodborne illness for the entire population, Dr. Beals has shown that you are about thirty-five thousand times more likely to get sick from other foods than you are from raw milk,†says Fallon Morell.

slizzardman said:

The fear is that the farms don't properly clean their equipment or cow udders. There just aren't anywhere near enough safety personnel or money to pay them for non-pasteurized milk to really be safe, you're talking about an awful lot of small farms that would have to be checked on a very, very regular basis whether that means testing the milk itself or having very frequent unscheduled and unwarned inspections of the facility. If everything was kept clean it would be fine, but the danger outweighs the relatively small benefit of not denaturing the lactase enzyme.

Would love to know the sources here, but understood about not being able to go into details. I also understand that your sources might not be involved in the CDC/gov't studies.

Anyways, I have been consuming raw milk for the past few months(agreed, delicious) from a local farm. I am not more concerned about getting sick than from a salad not properly washed or prepared. I don't believe extra regulations and/or the FDA should have anything to do with this. If there is an outbreak associated with a certain farm, they are done. It is in their best interests to keep everything clean and in order. If they choose to cut corners, and take that risk...well, there's nothing to be done. Even with inspections, bribing/buying someone off might be cheaper in the long run, and is far from unheard of. If you believe/it's true that inspections and money are the only thing that will keep people doing 'the right thing', I think e-coli deserves to take most of us out . Bottom line you should know your farmers, and if you have any doubt as to their character or ability, go somewhere else.

Also, how do you go about denaturing exactly?

slizzardman said:

There have been several small outbreaks of e. coli in the US that center on raw milk, I don't know that I can say any more than that without breaking confidences. Having said that, the conditions in these cases are truly abysmal, but it is the few events like this that really mess things up for the whole industry.

Again, sources...again, understood...but again, know your farm.