Iron Cross Development Without Rings?

GenericGymnast said:

Foundation please! 

 

Next!

Foundation isn't the be all and end all. I could perform all the SLS and RC progressions at mastery before starting Foundation, and the only PE elements I struggle with are mobility. I'm starting Foundation from the beginning without skipping through too quickly to make sure I have everything perfect before attempting more difficult movements. Even so, I am allowed to learn before I practice. There's no point spending months looking for information AFTER I'm ready to use set information.

Mercurial Flow said:

 

 

I've heard that the tendon in question is the brachialis tendon. Is it both the biceps brachii and brachialis that have to be strengthened or just the one? Also, what qualifies as 'ready' for iron cross training? I can hold a back lever with palms facing away. I've heard some say that this is heavy on the elbows, but I didn't have issue with it.

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/8084-preparing-the-elbows-and-biceps-for-iron-cross-training/

and to elaborate on the post Ravn linked, that was posted in the early days before Coach Sommer realised how under prepared the vast majority (read all) of adult students are for IC progressions. The new ring courses start from a much scaled back base, and after demonstrating proficiency in the F7 elements, would be the place to start. Doing IC on a solid surface doesn't change anything here.

Wrt mobility, well that has been by far the biggest issue and lack of it is getting people hurt. GST is very pragmatic in outlook, we don't do mobility for fun, it's simply essential!

Thank you. I shall certainly continue my conditioning routines. I know iron cross is well above my pay-grade. I've discovered a way to develop the preliminary muscular strength for the iron cross hold without fancy equipment and without involving the elbow joints, so that'll be an interesting thing to train after I master the planche and one arm chin-up   The strength requirements involved are nothing compared to the full iron cross, but it's something...

What are the F7 elements? Are you referring to Foundation? I'm only aware of F1 to F4, unless F7 is part of the rings series?

Absolutely. My hamstring inflexibility has caused me a myriad of problems. I've always had an unusually flexible upper body, but my hammies are like carbon fibre.

So by the sounds of it, I have to indirectly build the elbow strength from other elements before just jumping into strength training for the iron cross? Is there no iron cross specific training for the elbows, or should your elbows be iron-cross-ready before you have anything close to the muscular strength for it?

Mercurial Flow said:

Thank you. I shall certainly continue my conditioning routines. I know iron cross is well above my pay-grade. I've discovered a way to develop the preliminary muscular strength for the iron cross hold without fancy equipment and without involving the elbow joints, so that'll be an interesting thing to train after I master the planche and one arm chin-up   The strength requirements involved are nothing compared to the full iron cross, but it's something...

 

What are the F7 elements? Are you referring to Foundation? I'm only aware of F1 to F4, unless F7 is part of the rings series?

 

Absolutely. My hamstring inflexibility has caused me a myriad of problems. I've always had an unusually flexible upper body, but my hammies are like carbon fibre.

 

So by the sounds of it, I have to indirectly build the elbow strength from other elements before just jumping into strength training for the iron cross? Is there no iron cross specific training for the elbows, or should your elbows be iron-cross-ready before you have anything close to the muscular strength for it?

The "F7" elements are the same Foundation elements you are training. [iE: sPL, RC, MN, FL, SLS(FLS), HBP, and SL]

The Rings course is a seperate three part course. The general recommendation for starting serious rings training is to complete the entire foundation course.

By the time you complete the Foundation course your tendons will be ready for the strength demands of the Rings course and other courses that will be released.  You must realize your tendons don't develop as fast as you muscle do. However your body gets greater access of your muscluar strength from your tendons.

Rayne-William said:

The "F7" elements are the same Foundation elements you are training. [iE: sPL, RC, MN, FL, SLS(FLS), HBP, and SL]

 

The Rings course is seperate three part course. The general recommendation for starting serious rings training is to complete the entire foundation course.

 

By the time you complete the Foundation course your tendons will be ready for the strength demands of the Rings course and other courses that will be released.  You must realize your tendons don't develop as fast as you muscle do. However your body gets greater access of your muscluar strength from your tendons.

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

I have almost a decade of martial arts experience, and the one martial art I spent most time practicing put huge emphasis on bone and tendon conditioning (far too little emphasis on strength training though), so I'm more worried about muscle tears for advanced movements. One arm hangs + 75% body weight for wrist/finger strength and one arm knuckle support on gravel for hand strength was commonplace amongst the more advanced practitioners. Elbow conditioning was fairly severe as well. I don't know if it's enough for iron cross (certainly not game to find out), but planche and back lever training were supposed to be heavy on the elbows, but I didn't even have mild discomfort until straddle back lever. What is the clearest sign of 'readiness' to start iron cross training? I'm assuming just full planche and supinated back lever with no discomfort in the elbows. ?

Mercurial Flow,

What is the martial art you practiced?

Tell us more about the bone and tendon conditioning.

Daniel Canto Figueiredo said:

Mercurial Flow,

 

What is the martial art you practiced?

 

Tell us more about the bone and tendon conditioning.

It's called Agai (I learnt it in South Africa). I thought it was a worldwide practice, but no one outside of South Africa seems to have heard of it.

Bone conditioning usually comprises of isometric support positions, sometimes with added weight, sometimes on rough/uneven surfaces. Support is on knuckles, elbows, fingertips, head, et cetera. Occasionally we'll do striking conditioning on rubbery trees (can't remember what they're called, but water pours out of them when cut/stabbed) and sandbags, building up to harder surfaces like bamboo, then hardwoods, and eventually concrete slabs and hollow metal pipes. Glass/metal pipes are also struck on the shins/clavicles and other bones repeatedly. Tendon conditioning involves heavy partials (the only resistance training we focus on that isn't cardio/endurance) as well as resisting 'breaking' maneuvers (essentially, a partner tries to break your elbow/wrist by hyperextending it, and you have to resist the force by flexing your arm and slowly developing tendon/ligament strength). Couple that with lots of wrestling and getting punched in the face by your sensei, and you get pretty tough joints/bones.  A lot of the conditioning is akin to Shaolin Kung Fu and Muay Thai practices. As with everything, the key is progression. I was never diligent with it, so my joints aren't as strong as they could have been, but I can hang from a few fingertips, and I can almost stand on my head with no hand supports (against a wall for balance). I spent more time on the actual fighting techniques.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that there was also a lot of wrist strengthening; my mentor could do handstands against a wall on the back of his wrists. I only started training that recently, unfortunately, so knee push-ups on wrists is the best I can do without serious discomfort.

Mercurial Flow said:

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

 

I have almost a decade of martial arts experience, and the one martial art I spent most time practicing put huge emphasis on bone and tendon conditioning (far too little emphasis on strength training though), so I'm more worried about muscle tears for advanced movements. One arm hangs + 75% body weight for wrist/finger strength and one arm knuckle support on gravel for hand strength was commonplace amongst the more advanced practitioners. Elbow conditioning was fairly severe as well. I don't know if it's enough for iron cross (certainly not game to find out), but planche and back lever training were supposed to be heavy on the elbows, but I didn't even have mild discomfort until straddle back lever. What is the clearest sign of 'readiness' to start iron cross training? I'm assuming just full planche and supinated back lever with no discomfort in the elbows. ?

One of the clearest sign your body is ready for dedicated ring training is when you have finished the Foundation course. After finishing the foundation course and finally starting dedicated rings training your body will ready for iron cross when it comes up as the next training element.

Granted you body has developed some tendon strength, it isn't enough for the rigors of dedicated Rings training.

Mercurial Flow said:

... Foundation isn't the be all and end all ...

As a beginner this is an opinion that you are not qualified to have.

This discussion is over.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer