Some thoughts about HBP/PE3 and sPL/PE5 (pains, aches, problems)

A couple of weeks ago, I started to get some pain at the long head of the bicep in my left shoulder, it was only noticeable on sPL progressions (from sPL/PE1 to PE5) and HBP/PE3. Additional to it I was getting an strange kind of compression pain at the muscles in the back of my shoulders when I left the lean position on sPL/PE5. 

Now I'm fully recover, but I'm thinking about what happen, because I was following the programming and the deloads to rule, and I think I get a conclusion. It starts in the week I reached mastery at sPL/PE5 with a lean at bottom ribs, and at that same day I did 3x4r on HBP/PE3. Top position at HBP/PE3 is almost exactly sPL/PE5 and I think I catch an overload problem because this two movements has very similar positions, that stress my already stressed shoulders from the earlier sPL/PE5 work in the session.

In the present I'm working towards HBP/PE2 and sPL/PE1 I want you guys to give me and opinion about this issue that I've experimented.

I'm going to master first HBP/PE3 and then I'm gonna start working on sPL/PE5, that means I'm going to work just to sPL/PE4 in order to avoid working HBP/PE3 and sPL/PE5 at the same time. Thanks

What I did was doing them on separate days.I did the PLL together with SL,MN and SLS.Have you tried it that way already?

Andre737 said:

What I did was doing them on separate days.I did the PLL together with SL,MN and SLS.Have you tried it that way already?

No, sound like a very good approach, but unfortunately it doesn't apply to me, I always do F7. 

Chuc,

how much times in a week do you do F7?

Do you do other activities that load the same muscles of those two exercises during the week?

Stefano Baral said:

Chuc,

how much times in a week do you do F7?

Do you do other activities that load the same muscles of those two exercises during the week?

Only twice a week, which is an amazing frequency for my recovery, I've tried other schedules, but this one allow my progress and recovery to be at their peak. Besides foundation, I just do handstand and some dislocations completely pain free. I was just feeling the pain in those two exercises and every other similar position such as sPL/PE1, 2, 3, 4.

Looking at the course progression it seems that pseudo planche pushups (PPP) should be mastered before the planche leans and not together.

For you it was the opposite, and I find strange that you are only at 3x4r of PPP; probably you have progressed faster on the planche lean doing them before PPP  but with no energy left to do the same for the latter.

I would like also to hear opinion for someone more expert  on the issue of mastering first PPP an then planche leans.

If this is the case then it appears that you have trained planche leans without the preparation given early by the work on PPP and causing an overload issue and your decision to stop planche lean until you have mastered PPP is good.

Probably in the beginning is too much to train together two exercises that use the planche lean position.

Stefano Baral said:

Looking at the course progression it seems that pseudo planche pushups (PPP) should be mastered before the planche leans and not togheter.

For you it was the opposite, and I find strange that you are only at 3x4r of PPP; probably you have progressed faster on the planche lean doing them before PPP  but with no energy left to do the same for the latter.

I would like also to hear opinion for someone more expert  on the issue of mastering first PPP an then planche leans.

If this is the case then it appears that you have trained planche leans without the preparation given early by the work on PPP and causing an overload issue and your decision to stop planche lean until you have mastered PPP is good.

Probably in the beginning is too much to train together two exercises that use the planche position.

Before starting Foundation I was working a lot on HS pushups variations, dip variations and planche leans but never planche leans and PPP at the same time. I agree with you, I want to hear an opinion from someone more experienced.

Usually people who struggle to master PPP make the most progress after getting the chance to getting better at planche leans because of the similarities between the two (I remember reading a post from Mark Collins about this).

Stefano it's pretty common to have elements that progress at different rates.

I think (but that's just my humble opinion) that a solid planche lean is required to truly master PPP so don't stop working on those. From experience reducing the volume could be one solution (FYI I do F7 twice a week too). Also since PPP are really hard (at least they are for me ) sometimes I tend to take a couple of second of "rest" on top of the reps: if you think about it that "rest" it's exactly the same position as sPL/PE5 so that does more harm than good. That's my personal experience, hopefully someone with more knowledge will chime in!

Edoardo Cagnola said:

Usually people who struggle to master PPP make the most progress after getting the chance to getting better at planche leans because of the similarities between the two (I remember reading a post from Mark Collins about this).

Stefano it's pretty common to have elements that progress at different rates.

I think (but that's just my humble opinion) that a solid planche lean is required to truly master PPP so don't stop working on those. From experience reducing the volume could be one solution (FYI I do F7 twice a week too). Also since PPP are really hard (at least they are for me ) sometimes I tend to take a couple of second of "rest" on top of the reps: if you think about it that "rest" it's exactly the same position as sPL/PE5 so that does more harm than good. That's my personal experience, hopefully someone with more knowledge will chime in!

I'm gonna scale back up to sPL/PE5 after master again all previous PE's and then I'm gonna work at low volume on it, until if feels safe to increase it.

I'm still fairly new, but are you following F7 as you should?  I say this because there is a time gap between sLP and HBP.  That gap being workout for obliques, abs, and legs, before getting to HBP, so there is time for recovery.  

I took your advice a while back with scaling back on the PE's from the time when you saw my form (and the minor sprain i received on my left area of my arm), and found that sPL/PE5 is one of my favorites that I incorporate, due to the similarities of HB/PE3 (although I'm still on HB/PE2).  It seemed to compress, or pack, the muscles (not sure if I said that right), which helped in my recovery. 

Also have you tried going in slow motion with HB/PE3 (time under tension (TUT))?  I did that for my issues with recent push and pull routines and I believe it is great for strengthening your joints (during low repetitions), and maybe that compression pain you mentioned.

kingzlo said:

I'm still fairly new, but are you following F7 as you should?  I say this because there is a time gap between sLP and HBP.  That gap being workout for obliques, abs, and legs, before getting to HBP, so there is time for recovery.  

 

I took your advice a while back with scaling back on the PE's from the time when you saw my form (and the minor sprain i received on my left area of my arm), and found that sPL/PE5 is one of my favorites that I incorporate, due to the similarities of HB/PE3 (although I'm still on HB/PE2).  It seemed to compress, or pack, the muscles (not sure if I said that right), which helped in my recovery. 

 

Also have you tried going in slow motion with HB/PE3 (time under tension (TUT))?  I did that for my issues with recent push and pull routines and I believe it is great for strengthening your joints (during low repetitions), and maybe that compression pain you mentioned.

Yes, I'm doing the common F7, which includes that gap of recovery you mentioned. After master again HBP/PE2 I'm back on HBP/PE3  completely pain free, I plan to stay on Week 1 until it feels like nothing. I'm gonna post the video in the form check section.

Ah ok, I meant to ask this question earlier, but now that I see your video, it came back to me.  Isn't the hands supposed to be pointed out in both sPL/PE5 and HBP/PE3?  You can even see that the fingers are not pointed forward as HBP/PE2 through GB images and videos.  That is how I sprained my left arm in April.  I think initially the thumbs are pointed straight ahead, while remaining fingers are pointed outwards (hard to explain, but I think you get what I'm saying).  See the GB videos again.  

Also after watching your video, there was a link to another video (you know how youtube do it) and I saw this guy demo PPP and how to place the hands (how I mentioned it).  Check it out.

Well, to me understanding it's entirely up to you. I have good wrist flexibility, I can lean to hip level with fingers pointing forward on sPL/PE5 but if you're still building up your wrist strength and flexibility better to be careful about it. At the beginning I wasn't able to lean that far with fingers facing forward, I increase my lean every time my wrist flexibility got better. So, I think you should use the hand position showed in the course video, sometimes I use it too ! 

I think most people use that hand position in order to take wrist out of the equation, and if you think about it, it's the right approach because more adults and people who did a lot of desk work using fingers pointing forward, they will be limited by their wrist flexibility instead of because of their strength.