GHD Sit-ups--Lumbar Hyperextension

Have you guys heard of GHD sit-ups? If not, here is a video:

https://youtu.be/pMS2dU0FuPk

Notice in the video, he references people who "complain of back pain" doing this move, and he (like all others advocating for this exercise) attributes the pain to hyperextension of the back (particularly the lumbar spine). 

I'm curious if this pain caused by hyperextension is unavoidable, or if pain-free hyperextending is something that can be worked up to and even benefitted from for spine health, like the unconventional "over-flexion" seen in the Jefferson Curl.

I think it might also be helpful to consider the form for Back Limbers (which seems like a similar move to the GHD sit-up). Is one supposed to maintain PPT as much as possible in a Back Limber and therefore spare the lumbar spine from too much extension too soon? (Obviously you end in full APT, but maybe holding PPT spares the back mid-way through the motion?) Or is one just supposed to build up to a point where hyperextension in that motion is perfectly comfortable?

What do you guys think?

Ideally in a back limber you won't curve at the lumbar spine at all.

I think they are a high risk exercise. There are far better ways to train the abdominals without the risk.

Bipocni said:

Ideally in a back limber you won't curve at the lumbar spine at all.

Really? Is the curve supposed to come solely from the Thoracic Spine, then? Is it even possible to balance like that?

Mark Collins said:

I think they are a high risk exercise. There are far better ways to train the abdominals without the risk.

But could they be a safe exercise with proper progression? Could it also be beneficial to train the core/spine in that unconventional position?

NoHiddenCosts said:

Is it even possible to balance like that?

NoHiddenCosts said:

Really? Is the curve supposed to come solely from the Thoracic Spine, then? Is it even possible to balance like that?

But could they be a safe exercise with proper progression? Could it also be beneficial to train the core/spine in that unconventional position?

I'd file this under 'Master F4 and then we'll talk'.

Unless you are competing in Crossfit at an advanced level I wouldn't worry about doing them. I would expect if you can do F4 the a GHD sit up is no problem.

Sit-ups do not have to be performed with spinal extension. You can perfectly well do sit ups with posterior pelvic tilt, even weight or decline them.

Bipocni said:

Yes.

Impressive! But that looks more like the descent from a front limber... Can that person now put their feet down and, while maintaining a flat lumbar and not using momentum, lift their upper body from the floor?

Cole Dano said:

I'd file this under 'Master F4 and then we'll talk'.

Cole, I'm sure it was not your intention, but this response comes off to me as dismissive and lazy. There are "many ways to skin a cat" (no gymnastics puns, please  ), but you seem to imply that there is only one path to fitness--Foundation. This is simply not true; Foundation is a program devised by a very experienced coach with plenty of credentials. However, it is by no means perfect, and we should never treat it as such, lest we become lazy, uncreative, and inflexible in our training and coaching and closed off to important improvements that could be made.

Perhaps there are progressions more specific to the GHD sit-up available that could be beneficial to developing PPT/core strength for Wall Walks and Back Limbers. Maybe our Hollow Body position or Front Lever work would benefit from weighted isometric GHD sit-ups parallel to the floor. Maybe it is actually beneficial to train the spine to pull up against gravity from a hyperextended position--the opposite of the acclaimed Jefferson Curl, which surely could be scoffed at by very experienced coaches, athletes, and doctors who have always been taught to maintain a neutral spine. Have any of these options been truly tested, researched, or even considered?

Perhaps someone has extensively studied the GHD sit-up and all of its possible progressions and honestly determined it unworthy. Or perhaps there is some physiological phenomenon in the spine that makes this move just so much more different and unacceptable compared to similar moves that put us in an unconventional position (i.e. Back Limbers, Wall Walks, Jefferson Curls, etc). However, I have no idea of these possibilities because the conversation was halted at "Master F4". If you simply meant to be humorous, I apologize for picking you apart, but this type of conversational arrest is all too common on these public forums and really discourages the dialogue that online forums are designed to encourage. Let us not dismiss each other's curiosity with a simple patronizing sentence.

Moving on, if anyone would like to continue this dialogue, I am still interested in others' experience with progressing this exercise. I'm also curious if this could graduate to an exercise that benefits the spine alike the Jefferson Curl, progressing the spine to articulate in a manner unconventional to most training methods. Please let me know your thoughts.

@Alexander, are sit-ups with spinal extension fundamentally bad? Or are they only overzealously pursued but potentially beneficial?

Few things chap my hide more than being called lazy.

I wouldn't personally have a beginner use that device when there are so many other options out there.

There is zero correspondence between the described exercise and Jefferson Curls, you would have to extend your spine to do that. You would have to do a sit up with spinal extension.

For me that's going to be a machine version of a bridge to stand and there are plenty of progressions for that. The problem with the machine version is similar to Smith Machine Sqauts, it forces you into what may be an unnatural line of movement. Whereas doing bridge to stand you can freely adjust your position in space.

So it still boils down to my original comment, that this is best left for a more advanced trainee.

I look at GHD-situps as an iM movement. Slowly increase the ROM over time in a slow controlled fashion and only go as far down as you can while maintaining PPT so you aren't curling at the lumbar. Using it as an explosive movement(which is usually the prescribed method) is where the statement "master f4 and we'll talk" comes in. Or at the very least, master the FL+iM along with MN up to F2. It is high risk, and you need to have a certain level of strength and mobility to begin with in order to do them safely.

Also keep in mind that Foundation is considered beginner. Front Lever progressions have alot of PPT exercises, so those directly apply to GHD situps. And the bridge work covers strengthening the reverse musculature of the movement. I only throw in MN work, because if the abs aren't strong enough, you'll be compensating with other muscles that aren't meant for the motion and end up injuring yourself anyways. Handstand One has extra PPT work aswell come to think of it. If you're looking for moves that specifically apply.

Cole Dano said:

Few things chap my hide more than being called lazy.

 

I wouldn't personally have a beginner use that device when there are so many other options out there.

I apologize for offending and thank you for your willingness to continue conversation.

 

There is zero correspondence between the described exercise and Jefferson Curls, you would have to extend your spine to do that. You would have to do a sit up with spinal extension.

Yes, the GHD sit-up is a sit-up with spinal extension. The Jefferson Curl is a deadlift with spinal flexion. They are opposites, but they are similar because they both put the spine in an unconventional position that many experts would deem unsafe. Many have been injured from GHD sit-ups and from deadlifting with a flexed lumbar. However, Coach Sommer and many of us have found that, properly progressed, this flexed straight-leg deadlift has great effect on our spine strength and mobility. So I wonder if the GHD sit-up could similarly benefit the spine (on the other side).

 

For me that's going to be a machine version of a bridge to stand and there are plenty of progressions for that. The problem with the machine version is similar to Smith Machine Sqauts, it forces you into what may be an unnatural line of movement. Whereas doing bridge to stand you can freely adjust your position in space.

There are exercises that benefit from the use of a machine, most relevantly the Glute-Ham Raise and Weighted Arch-ups. I feel like the bridge to stand progressions, though existent, are not ideal, and perhaps this exercise could help. For instance, it is much easier to add weight here (when ready) than it is in a bridge wall-walk or half limber.

@Nick Roy, thank you as well for your thoughts. There are indeed a lot of great exercises in F & H. But the public forum, I think, is a great place to explore other potentially great exercises that are out there. Front Lever PPT exercises may apply to GHD Sit-ups, but GHD sit-ups may also apply to Front Lever PPT exercises. We spend a lot of time on the forum talking about how Foundation will help you in other endeavors, but not a lot about how other endeavors may help you in Foundation. My friend, for instance, has found that Bench Pressing has been helping him overcome his many-month long plateau in PPPs. Maybe the GHD sit-up can also help in developing back limbers, PPT, etc or simply strengthening the spine/abdomen/hip flexors in another way.

Let it be noted that I am not a GHD sit-up fanatic. I only recently discovered the exercise and have interest in its potential, so I thought this might be a good place to discuss it.

I guess I misunderstood the question. I thought you were asking if it were possible to do GHD situps safely and what progressions that would assist them. That's the question I was intending to answer. And in the event of trying to use them as an assistance movement for limbers, then to approach them like mobility movement.

But yes, it is already known other exercises outside of foundation will help foundation exercises. Like decline situps and deadlifts. But the difference between when those were discussed it was from people who already mastered them and attempted foundation. Slizzardman is a good example.

I could see bench press helping as well, as far as strengthening the shoulders for the movement. That's what planks are for, but I could see bench press doing a similar job

I don't see the mechanics of this exercise being the same as a back limber or a Jefferson curl, although I understand where you're coming from.

In order to train something like that you would either have to do this exercise under assistance from a cable machine or already be very very strong.

Keep in mind that this exact extension to flexion mechanism is why so many people have hurt themselves doing situps and why they are pretty much universally derifed by everybody. The old classic Stuart McGill experiments have their flaws, but this is definitely not something you want to be doing for high reps.

As far as a joint prehab approach goes, I have absolutely no idea if it would be beneficial or not. I know that building up the strength to not go into extension would be very useful, but I can't imagine there would be little if anything to be gained practicing pulling out of it.

Remember that Jefferson curls are primarily a mobility exercise, with a secondary focus on prehab. They are mostly for developing the pike stretch and preparation for a press handstand. I can't imagine that this GHD situp variation of yours would have much carryover to athletic performance, and in my mind the risks far outweigh any potential rewards.

By all means feel free to conduct your own experiments with it. Just do so knowing full well that people have advised you not to do it, because at best you're wasting your time and at worst you're going to blow a disk.

Not trying to be insulting, but these are the facts. People are telling you not to do this, and you need to acknowledge this before you go ahead and do it anyway.

I would be interested to hear what he has to say. I wish you the best of luck in obtaining the answers you're looking for.

I have owned a GHD machine and have done one rep in two years. I use it for what it was designed for, the posterior chain. I also do Crossfit in conjunction with GST. However I think the risk is too big for the gain especially when you can do other exercises.

As Bipocni you can experiment with it, but do you really want to be the person who says in 5 years time "GHD sit-ups are no good for the back".

GHD situps are a relatively advanced exercise mobility wise.  

In my opinion, if you have not already mastered the Thoracic Bridge stretch series, your middle and lower back are insufficiently conditioned to focus on training this element productively and safely.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer