Vegans

MODERATOR ALERT!

Guys - I've yet to see a thread of this nature remain civil in tone, let make this one the first.

I have already given a formal warning to one participant and removed a post. Given the past history we've had with these topics, moderation will be very strict.

That said, as long  you all keep it clean and civll feel free to express your various viewpoints.

But seriously Bipconi. Do you consider society/civilization unnatural? Nearly every species of animals have society. Ours is just different

Nick Roy said:

But seriously Bipconi. Do you consider society/civilization unnatural? Nearly every species of animals have society. Ours is just different

Short answer: yes.

A couple hundred thousands years ago we were like all the other animals. Sure we used fire to cook our food, threw spears to catch it, but apart from the basic ability to bang rocks together with various results we were still relatively equivalent in terms of actual planetary impact.

Roughly ten thousand years ago we invented agriculture and started growing crops. Four hundred years ago we invented the steam engine and truly kicked off the Industrial Age. Two hundred years ago, electricity. One hundred years ago, flight. Sixty years after that, we hit the moon. Regardless of how ever else you look at it, we're the only creature we know to have accomplished that.

It's difficult to say at what point we diverged from other animals. Was it the domestication of wolves and horses? Was it the invention of war, which led to the invention of government? Perhaps it was just a couple of days ago, when the Chinese announced they have started tampering with the human genome.

What remains is the fact that everywhere the human species has spread to, there has been an extinction event. Most recently in New Zealand with the Moa, but you can literally track the spread of humanity across the globe in the fossil record.

We have cultivated over thirty percent of the land on the planet for human use. We have built so many fans we have altered the tilt of the planetary axis. The ocean is now 30% more acidic than it was before the industrial revolution, and contains dead patches that total more size than the United kingdom.

No other animal is like us. No living creature has had this level of impact on the globe since the first algae inhaling carbon dioxide and exhaling oxygen.

Unlike those algae, we live in a flourishing biosphere, and we're aware of the consequences for our actions. Whether we choose to preserve life for our own sake or for their sake, it still needs to be done.

We are quite literally capable of reshaping the globe as we see fit. It may sound like hubris, but we are essentially gods. Look at the average person on the street and ask yourself if you would trust them with that sort of responsibility. Because you have to.

No, our civilisation isn't natural. And any attempt to stay natural is just going to hold us back and stop us from doing the things we need to to succeed. We are at the crucible of our existence. We need to redefine the natural world in order to survive. We can't continue to behave like animals forever. The stakes are too high.

I don't even know where to start. You've literally opened up atleast 5 different points that are discussions all in there own right.

So your view is that humans are gods, but are acting like parasites and that the only way to turn away from the apocalypse is by being benevolent gods were supposedly meant to be. And to do so is..not eating meat?

We invented war? Animals war every single day about things that have nothing to do with humans. Have you ever watched documentaries about monkeys in India? They literally travel in gangs and fight against rival gangs for land. Food, whatever. They have coordinated strikes in teams in order to kill. And they don't eat the other side. They just kill them. So how exactly can you say we invented war? War just IS.

We invented government? Yes we did.

Everwhere humans have traveled to there has been an extinction event?

I challenge you to name more than 1 species that literally has gone extinct, as in no longer exists in any form solely because humans are present or something we do. I can name a couple of the top of my head that are going extinct, because of their own actions. Like pandas, bamboo is like candy to them and they eat so much of it that the are slowly dying off. Pedder Galaxias. It's a fish that was dying off because of rival fish in it's natural habitat. Humans decided we wanted to preserve them. So we moved them to new waters. You know what they did? They became the apex predator and started killing everything in the new waters.

The ocean is more acidic than pre industrial revolution? True and that is a problem in itself that should be addressed. The ocean also gets salter every single year.

Planetary tilt has been shifted because of our fans?

I've not looked into that and don't know enough to speak on the subject.

We are gods?

No comment.

We have the ability to reshape the world as we see fit?

I agree.

"No, our civilization isn't natural".

That wasn't my question. My question was, do you consider society and civilization unnatural, when animals have their own societies?

And a side note. How are we behaving like animals, when we cultivate new trees every year, to replenish the ones we cut down?

Or how we take care of farm animals and let them reproduce so there is even more food?

Or how we systematically grow hundreds of other fruits, nuts and vegetables every single year?

I can't name another species on earth that does that. They see food, they eat food. Humans are the only ones that consider a future. And for topic at hand. Is what we are currently doing sustainable? That's the over arching question. You seem to feel it's not. I think the best way to sustain food as a whole is by using as many sources as possible, giving each one time to replenish.

Now I'm not saying we have nothing in common with animals or that we don't act like animals at times. But as a society, we are MUCH more likely to crash for political reasons than environmental.

You're molding "natural" organic/moral/common/animalistic properties and treating it like it's all the same thing. It's not.

Nick Roy said:

You're molding "natural" organic/moral/common/animalistic properties and treating it like it's all the same thing. It's not.

Fair enough.

So off the top of my head there's the Moa, the thylacine and the dodo. For a time there was the North American buffalo, but they made a fantastic comeback.

Of course all this is ignoring things like the seven strains of Native American horses that were wiped out when the Native American arrived. Or the mammoths. Or the three meter tall kangaroos that used to roam Australia before the aboriginals arrived.

Everywhere humanity has spread we have killed and eaten all the largest animals. There's supposed to be elephant sized creatures on every continent, not just Africa. You know the Amazon rainforest? Hailed for being the last bastion of untamed wilderness. It's not supposed to be there. Giant animals are supposed to be trampling those trees. Three guesses who hunted them to extinction.

I never said that humans were the only animals that waged war. But there is a theory that it was war that lead to the creation of governance. Sitting around telling other people what to do all day and not producing anything of your own is resource expensive.

I consider not eating meat to be relatively important because animal proteins are so incredibly resource expensive. I don't have exact numbers for you but I know it can require orders of magnitude more land, water, fuel, ect to produce. It's alway going to be more expensive, because animals have to eat, and we could just eat what they eat.

Before the haber process was invented the projected carrying capacity of the earth was three billion people. Now we have nitrogen fertiliser, and so we can kinda feed seven billion. Comes at the cost of some pretty ridiculous algal blooms, but whatever.

Problem is we have a population that's still growing, while thanks to mono culturing crops our food is less and less nutritious. We're running out of land, changing the chemical makeup of our the atmosphere and the ocean to do it, and sooner or later there are going to be wars fought over our diminishing water supply.

Why do I say we act like animals? Any time someone gives in to a biological impulse rather than take a rational course of action, they're acting like an animal. Every single act of tribal politics, objectification, violence or gluttony is an animalistic behaviour.

We live on a tiny spec of sand floating in infinite space. The people that control it for the most part would prefer that we remain locked in competition with eachother, mindlessly distracting ourselves to death with petty squabbles and cheap novelties.

Do I think not eating meat is going to solve all the worlds problems? No. But I do think that devoting your time to anything less than the continued survival of our species is a waste of time.

People are pretty blind to this so I'll spell it out for you. In thirty years, the Great Barrier Reef won't be there any more. We will have extinguished our supply of easy to obtain metals and fossil fuels. If we haven't gone carbon neutral, it will be too late to reverse the feedback loop we have created regarding global warming.

We. Are. Going. To. Die.

It wouldn't bother me so much, except that will all the metals and fossil fuels used up the next guys to come after us won't be able to kick start an industrial revolution. We are possibly the only chance for life to escape this planet, and may well be the only life forms in the entire universe.

I envision a cold, dead universe, with nothing left alive to appreciate its magnitude and beauty. It is littered with graveyards of creatures that never made it off their home planet.

I don't want this to come to pass. I am going to do everything in my power to stop it from happening.

So I reject animal behaviour, and I reject meat. And occasionally I go on long rants on the Internet to try to convince other people to believe what I believe.

Maybe I'm an asshole. Probably. But do you really want to be the guy standing there at the end of the world thinking, "why didn't I at least try?"

@Bipconi
I'm just noting that I'm going to disregard the mammoth and and the kangaroo, because there's not documented evidence as to why they aren't around. Especially the mammoth. What's to say it wasn't just the ice age ended and they couldn't handle the environment? Or in their weakened state they couldn't handle the predators. If you theorize before all facts are noted you tend to bend facts to suit your theory rather than the other way around.

As for the dodo, there's research to show it was deeper than just humans being there and hunting. It was the animals that came with humans who went out and started eating the dodo eggs. While yes, humans did hunt and eat them. They weren't the only factors, so to say it was because of humans isn't entirely honest.

American Buffalo are still around, so that doesn't count as extinct.

I don't know much anything about the moa, I'd have to look into it.

While an awesome theory that would be cool to witness, how do you know there are supposed to be monstrous sized animals on every continent?

I didn't claim you did say humans were the only one to conduct war. I was referring to the statement you made about humans "inventing" war. Are you saying the animals learned from us? Because from the looks of it, war had always existed, just the manner in which we go about it and it's size has changed.

True that they are resource expensive. But if you do the math. That's aloooot of extra mouths feeding on our food 24/7 with no regard to reserving resources so we can all eat. Not saying it's impossible, but it just seems we'd be trading one resource for another and that the price wouldn't change much because of how much more we would have to produce yearto year on a resource dependant on whether or not we have a drought. Hydroponics is advancing our development, so maybe we can make it cheaper in the future. But actual figures would help this subject.

Eh. Energy isn't created or destroyed. Just changed. Water runs in a cycle. It's just moving around. I'd rather stay away from the global warming subject tho.

Are you saying it's inherently bad to give in to physical/emotional wants and needs?

Talk to you in a 30 years I guess.

Fossil fuels is an interesting subject. With our sciences we aren't far from no longer needing them. The first hydrogen powered car is 1 year from being released. It was supposed to be this year but got pushed back. There's also avenues like magnetism that hasn't been funded for research. You could have limitless energy for a vehicle. I leave out electric, because the amount of pollution from creating the batteries are bad enough.

While noble to fight for what you believe in. That's giving into your emotions, tho you use rational thinking to do what you already want. It's just being smart and intellectual in the way you go about fulfilling a animal want. We're emotional beings.

I don't think that makes you an asshole. But your cander sometimes does. We've all been an asshole at one time or another. *raises hand* guilty.

Nick Roy said:

While an awesome theory that would be cool to witness, how do you know there are supposed to be monstrous sized animals on every continent?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megafauna

Pay particular attention to this part: "Outside the mainland of Afro-Eurasia, these megafaunal extinctions followed a highly distinctive landmass-by-landmass pattern that closely parallels the spread of humans into previously uninhabited regions of the world, and which shows no correlation with climatic history."

You can learn more here: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction

I agree that it's entirely possible for us to move beyond a carbon dependant society, but tribal politics and the almighty dollar are making the rate of change just that little bit too slow for me to be comfortable.

This is, in fact, the reason I'm studying to become an electrical engineer. It really wouldn't take all that much doing to put some solar panels up and solve the energy crisis.

Doesn't change the fact that if we fail, the next guy is going to have a hell of a lot of trouble getting back to where we are now. Possibly there will be enough tech around for them to scavenge, but I doubt it.

You seem to be under the impression that I do the things I do because I want to do them. I don't feel this is the case. It would be funadementally easier to remain ignorant and blissful, to not stress out over university grades and to eat meat (which is delicious by the way). I would love to do all these things, but cold logic says we all need to do our part, so I'm doing mine.

Those would be much more credible if it was a couple hundred years ago. Instead of 10,000-45,000 years ago. If you cross examine the studies by other researcher they all just have conflicting theories.

This is why I said in a previous comment that I was disregarding the mammoth because there's no documented evidence and is too wishy washy.

But i did ask why you have that assumption of giant animals on all continents. Now I know.

Yea, politics is definitely slowing down progress. The only reason computers have advanced so much is because of war needs AND once it reached the hands of the citizens the government couldn't do a damn thing to slow us down.

That's pretty cool you're going to be an electrical engineer. Are you in a journeyman program or just at university? *asking this as a mechanical engineer*

Nick Roy said:

That's pretty cool you're going to be an electrical engineer. Are you in a journeyman program or just at university? *asking this as a mechanical engineer*

I've applied to a number of universities trying to sort out mid-year entry. Unfortunately up until now I was living in the UK and without government assistance I couldn't afford the tuition.

I'd love to go to uni in Canada, given the opportunity, but I have no idea how to set that up. I just really want that steel ring.

What kind of work do you do?

If you're willing to dedicate a few years to a specific company, there are alot of places that will take you in as an apprentice. You wouldn't have to pay(sort of), just have the grades along with signing a contract to work for them after graduation. Tends to range anywhere from 1-3 years. They have you alternate between school full time and working fulltime(they take some money from your paycheck for school), using what you learned, so there's tons of applied math and science as well as experience. Friend of mine is doing that as we speak as an electrical engineer aswell. I'm not sure if they do that in Canada, but I don't see why they wouldn't. It's a great deal for both sides, especially since you know this is what you want to do.

Nothing specific to my major sadly. I finished uni last spring. Finding work in Virginia where im from was hard in general, nonetheless in my major. Moved to Texas for oilfield work. Oil boom crashed so now I work with cars in an auto salvage yard. Building up my credentials for better paying jobs.

One may be dissatisfied with Man. One may be frustrated with Man. One may be disappointmented with Man.

This does not change the fact that Man is a part of the natural order. And as such, any of his constructions and actions are also a part of the natural order; no different than a beaver dam.

Bipocni's drive toward improving both his self and the environment around him is also an innate trait of Man as a self aware animal; and also a part of the natural order.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Bipocni said:

It's difficult to say at what point we diverged from other animals.

[...]

No, our civilisation isn't natural. And any attempt to stay natural is just going to hold us back and stop us from doing the things we need to to succeed. We are at the crucible of our existence. We need to redefine the natural world in order to survive. We can't continue to behave like animals forever. The stakes are too high.

I disagree with both of these statements.

The emergence of reflective consciousness is due to bipedalism. By becoming bipedal, the first Australopithecus have freed their hands. This allowed them to communicate with each other through the ability to indicate directions. Hands became directional indications tools. Thereby, they could indicate where they will go (indication of the future) and where they came from (indication of the past). In other words, they could indicate the time. Adding sounds to these movements (the ability to express actions in space and in time) was the beginning of the complex human language. This allowed the birth of cultures and civilizations.

In the beginning was the Word.

See nb_xi7v1Efk

Bipocni said:

What remains is the fact that everywhere the human species has spread to, there has been an extinction event. Most recently in New Zealand with the Moa, but you can literally track the spread of humanity across the globe in the fossil record.

We have cultivated over thirty percent of the land on the planet for human use. We have built so many fans we have altered the tilt of the planetary axis. The ocean is now 30% more acidic than it was before the industrial revolution, and contains dead patches that total more size than the United kingdom.

No other animal is like us. No living creature has had this level of impact on the globe since the first algae inhaling carbon dioxide and exhaling oxygen.

Caloric homeostatis law. Nothing new under the sun. If you take too many calories, you destroy your environment or it destroys you.

Homo sapiens does not transcend nature and is not an exception. On the highest throne in the world, we still sit only on our own bottom.

No matter what we do we wont stop the Earth from recovering. We could nuke everything, but cockroaches and other bacteria and such will eventually, even thousands of years later, start again. A new beginning. We should preserve the Earth for us, but Earth will be here until a meteor hits and destroys it, or the Sun dies.

Prometheus said:

No matter what we do we wont stop the Earth from recovering.

Tell that to Venus.

Krel said:

The emergence of reflective consciousness is due to bipedalism.

Quite possibly. I've heard it said that the capacity for abstract reasoning came from the development of persistence hunting. Something about the ability to take on the mindset of our prey and know what it will be doing without actually being able to see it. And persistence hunting is a uniquely bipedal technique.

Of course, some people deny it as our evolutionary heritage and say only a few small tribes have ever practiced it.

Personally I believe it was the use of fire that created the human mind. By cooking our food we could use less energy to digest it (freeing up more energy for processing power) and more importantly by not having such developed jaw muscles our skulls had room to expand, filling it with delicious brain meats.

The actual development of language is a different story, although personally the stoned ape theory has always tickled me.

Venus is the opposite of what it would be like. The Earth would cool....

Also, I love the stoned ape theory. Hope it is true.

Coach Sommer said:

One may be dissatisfied with Man. One may be frustrated with Man. One may be disappointmented with Man.

This does not change the fact that Man is a part of the natural order. And as such, any of his constructions and actions are also a part of the natural order; no different than a beaver dam.

Bipocni's drive toward improving both his self and the environment around him is also an innate trait of Man as a self aware animal; and also a part of the natural order.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Disagreeing with one another is also part of the natural order

... that way, only the strong survive.   :D

Oompa2 said:

Disagreeing with one another is also part of the natural order

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there....

Bipocni said:

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there....

"The Force is strong with this one"