Cardio: too fat to run?

Get on the rower!

At 96kg I've realised running is off the cards for a while, and after getting gassed in a few minutes on the rower without shin and ankle pain, I can thoroughly recommend it.

Coach Sommer suggests about six miles of running a week over a few sessions. Does anyone know what a comparable effort would be on the rower?

Basing it off time:

A jogging pace for most people is going to be 8-10 minutes per mile.  Six miles a week is going to be ~50-60 minutes a week.

My preference is to do this at an aerobic pace.  You should be able to have a conversation, sing along with your tunes, or breathe exclusively through your nose while working at this pace.

If you want to work hard, then do sprints, as hard as you possibly can go for 20-30 seconds.  4-10 reps, once a week should be good.

Anything in between those two levels of effort is not very useful to me.

A 2000m row will always separate the men from the boys... give that a go at best effort.

A 5000m row at a maintainable pace is also a considerable endurance session.

I used to do a lot of rowing when space was not available to run and learnt to love it. Intervals are great (because the C2 is programmable) and many running sessions can be transferred straight to the rower. As an example, Simon Deeks' 'Monah' session works well - it is:

1 x (2:00 work \ 2:00 slow recovery)

2 x (1:00 work \ 1:00 slow recovery)

4 x (0:45 work \ 0:45 slow recovery)

6 x (0:30 work \ 0:30 slow recovery)

walking is probably something good to start, my brother went through a process of losing 100 extra pounds and walking helped him start his cardio journey.

In general, I think that it would be very useful to get a heart rate meter and begin to understand where your aerobic threshold and lactate threshold are, more or less. You don't need any testing, but you need to recognize your breathing markers. I personally find that doing 15-20 minutes of cardio three times a week in which I gradually increase the effort during the first 5-10 minutes (depending on how much warm up I need that day) and then keeping a pace close to my lactate threshold until the end of the session works well for me nad allows me to be withing Coach Sommer recommendations,

As a starting point for comparable effort, you can use the metabolic equivalent tables. Coach recommend 2miles in 15-18 minutes, that means an average speed of 6.7-8mph, more or less. According to the compendium of physical activities, this means a metabolic equivalent range of 10.5-11.8. The same table tells that rowing at 150W has a metabolic equivalent of 8.5 and 200W has an equivalent of 12. So ballpark a 175-200W average effort for 15-20minutes three times a week would be comparable, I think. This is not an exact science and the metabolic equivalent tables have limits in term of accuracy, but they're not that far off, in my limited experience.

if you are overweight you should implement only anaerobic exercises or walk up to the stairs no walk down.

Basically with my clients I've never used run to improve the fat burning.

If you are going to row, you can improve your technique by putting in a few Kilometers of rowing without using the foot straps.

This will get you using your hamstrings correctly on the Recover section of the row.

I used to warm up with the foot straps off.

You can also do 500m sprints, but those are taxing. 

The best time is 1:10.

My PR was 1:25

Never was serious about rowing, but it was an amazing warmup for my back workout days. Perfect body temperature for strength work and all the proper musculature is primed for work. I should note, you can just as easily over work your grip at first when starting rowing if it's done in excess throughout the week.

RJS said:

walking is probably something good to start, my brother went through a process of losing 100 extra pounds and walking helped him start his cardio journey.

alex87 said:

if you are overweight you should implement only anaerobic exercises or walk up to the stairs no walk down.

Basically with my clients I've never used run to improve the fat burning.

Even the bodybuilders agree: Walking is good for fat loss. https://www.t-nation.com/training/get-ripped-get-walking

shughes89 said:

Get on the rower!

 

At 96kg I've realised running is off the cards for a while, and after getting gassed in a few minutes on the rower without shin and ankle pain, I can thoroughly recommend it.

 

Coach Sommer suggests about six miles of running a week over a few sessions. Does anyone know what a comparable effort would be on the rower?

You're going to want 2-3 sessions 20-30 minutes in length. 

Swimming is another good alternative for those with excess adipose. 

At 6"2 I find rowing easier than running. I would rather row 10km than run 10km.

As a beginner I would build a cardio base with some low heart rate rowing <150bpm for 30/0-60mins. As you get more fitness and proficient at rowing add some intervals training.

Rowing is very technical so make sure you get someone to check your from. There are plenty of free tips online that can help you with technique.

Mark Collins said:

At 6"2 I find rowing easier than running. I would rather row 10km than run 10km.

As a beginner I would build a cardio base with some low heart rate rowing <150bpm for 30/0-60mins. As you get more fitness and proficient at rowing add some intervals training.

Rowing is very technical so make sure you get someone to check your from. There are plenty of free tips online that can help you with technique.

http://breakingmuscle.com/rowing/17-tips-for-getting-better-at-rowing

http://breakingmuscle.com/rowing/rowing-tips-and-drills-olympic-medalist-magda-fularczyk

A starting point.

-Callum

Of primary importance here is to remember that the primary goal is fat loss; not improving fitness.  Moderate cardio will address the fat loss needs.  At this point in time do not give in to the desire to engage in hard cardio; while it will improve fitness, it will grind your fat loss to a near halt.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

As a former collegiate rower ("only" 1 year, though at D1 school), I'm going to stress Mark's comment here: 

Mark Collins said:

Rowing is very technical so make sure you get someone to check your from. There are plenty of free tips online that can help you with technique.

It pains me to watch what most folks do on the erg : (. Most people think it's a back & arm workout. It's not; if you row correctly, it's 90% legs. 

Here's what I would suggest for workout guidelines:

1) Row for a distance, not for a length of time. Exactly how far is for you to experiment with & progress on. Start short and work up.

2) Set the computer to show your /500m split time (e.g. 2:12/500m = 2 minutes 12 seconds to go 500m). Aim for under 2:10/500m.

3) Maintain 22-24 strokes /minute

4) Set the resistance flywheel at about 6-7. 

If you try this and find it difficult to do 2:10/500m splits @ 22 spm, you need to pay more attention to your form & maximizing the use of your legs. 

Good luck! Rowing is great stuff (though the stuff of nightmares, if you're in competition. My old training turned me away from the erg for years. Literally years.)

wamarler said:

As a former collegiate rower ("only" 1 year, though at D1 school), I'm going to stress Mark's comment here: 

It pains me to watch what most folks do on the erg : (. Most people think it's a back & arm workout. It's not; if you row correctly, it's 90% legs. 

 

Here's what I would suggest for workout guidelines:

1) Row for a distance, not for a length of time. Exactly how far is for you to experiment with & progress on. Start short and work up.

2) Set the computer to show your /500m split time (e.g. 2:12/500m = 2 minutes 12 seconds to go 500m). Aim for under 2:10/500m.

3) Maintain 22-24 strokes /minute

4) Set the resistance flywheel at about 6-7. 

 

If you try this and find it difficult to do 2:10/500m splits @ 22 spm, you need to pay more attention to your form & maximizing the use of your legs. 

 

Good luck! Rowing is great stuff (though the stuff of nightmares, if you're in competition. My old training turned me away from the erg for years. Literally years.)

If you're rowing for sport or effective cardio I agree. But if the goal is to warm up the upper body as well as hips, then you should play around with the form. No sense in maximally using your legs of you're just trying to warm up the back.

Nick Roy said:

... if the goal is to warm up the upper body as well as hips, then you should play around with the form. No sense in maximally using your legs of you're just trying to warm up the back.

Respectfully, I completely disagree. Do the exercise properly, whatever it is. If the exercise doesn't work what you want to work, it is not the right exercise to do. In that case, find the right exercise, and do that instead. 

I would stick with the correct form as well otherwise you will cause an injury to the low back or shoulders.

If you want to see how much rowing will work the legs try a workout combining rowing with running. Rowing is brutal and is the only exercise that can cause me nausea for 30 mins after a workout. If you watch rowing in the Olympics you see the winners just collapse in their boats in pain when they win gold. Different to a 100m sprinter who is smiling and looking like they have done nothing.

Mark Collins said:

 ... Rowing is brutal ...

Haha, let's not scare away our OP here ;-). Rowing certainly can be brutal -- it's more brutal (brutaler?) than any other physical activity I've tried, and it was years after I left the team before I sat on an erg seat again -- but it doesn't have to be : ). You don't have to try and beat the erg to get a good caloric burn from it (and spoiler alert: the erg always wins), and besides, you want to come back week after week. It's much harder to get back in the saddle when you know you'll be stepping off it nauseous and barely functional (unless of course that's your thing -- in which case you've always been a rower, you just didn't know it).

As Coach already mentioned, if rowing for fat loss, then it shouldn't be hard cardio. Of course as always on e should learn proper form, and work the recommend drills as a regular part of warmup for the rowing session.

No need to turn rowing as a supplement to GST or for general health in to a death match.

Having just bought a machine myself, I think it's an outstanding adjunct to GST.

jfreaksho said:

Even the bodybuilders agree: Walking is good for fat loss. https://www.t-nation.com/training/get-ripped-get-walking

This was an interesting article, though the sensational title made me wonder at its legitimacy. So ... I started looking around. I found some science:  http://www.alanaragon.com/myths-under-the-microscope-the-fat-burning-zone-fasted-cardio.html. It's a 3-part article that's quite good.

My takeaways:

-- optimum fat-burning exercise rate is 63% of VO₂ Max.

-- Corroboration that LISS (low-intensity steady state) is effective at reducing fat while maintaining lean body mass (always good when scientific studies can match colloquial wisdom)

-- HIIT (high-intensity interval training) is also effective

-- LISS requires a higher time investment than HIIT for the same results; At the same time, HIIT exacts a greater physical toll on your body and requires a recovery period (that LISS does not).

-- When doing enough LISS to make a difference, doing it fasted (ie, first thing in the morning without eating) is not any more effective than doing it fed.

I got to the end and said "ok! time to implement some 63% VO₂ max work into my week ... wait, how do I know if I'm at 63% VO₂ Max without being hooked up to breathing apparatus on a treadmill?" And ... I don't know. But here are 4 ways of estimating VO₂ Max: http://www.shapesense.com/fitness-exercise/calculators/vo2max-calculator.aspx. I'm thinking that if you measure your VO₂ Max once, then do the exact same work at a lower intensity (e.g. walk the mile at a slower pace) and measure your VO₂ "max" again, this second time you will get a measurement of your VO₂ at that moment that you can compare to your max and figure out where it is relative to 63%. 

After I wrote this I thought "hm, I wonder if it's possible to get a VO₂ Max from an erg ... let's Google it." And sure enough, Concept 2 has an estimator on their website: http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/calculators/vo2max-calculator. Read the caveats at the end (and have fun with that 2k test ;-). 

Also: The author of the 3-part article above, Alan Aragon wrote that piece in 2006. He co-authored another literature review piece in 2014 that may be of interest to some on this forum:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24998610(PDF here).

wamarler said:

This was an interesting article, though the sensational title made me wonder at its legitimacy. So ... I started looking around. I found some science:  http://www.alanaragon.com/myths-under-the-microscope-the-fat-burning-zone-fasted-cardio.html. It's a 3-part article that's quite good.

That was some good research on your part, though you completely neglect the importance of getting outside, getting fresh air, sunshine, active recovery, meditative effects of walking, etc.  I walk ~40 minutes every day to class, and it's totally necessary for my health (but not necessarily my fitness).

jfreaksho said:

... you completely neglect the importance of getting outside, getting fresh air, sunshine, active recovery, meditative effects of walking, etc.  

Yes, that's how scientific studies work. They attempt to isolate and adjust only one or two factors at a time, so they can draw conclusions about the effects of those specific variables. Do you think that not considering certain other factors invalidates the conclusions of the studies that I shared? If so, you should write the author (or the author of the papers he references), with your points and reasons. You might inspire another study that way. 

According to the tests of the researchers that came out with the formula VO2max=15.26*MHR/RHR, that formula is as accurate and reliable as any other field test.

RHR is pretty easy to get and MHR can be done, either by running like a mad man on the treadmill or by using the approximation (lactate threshold)/.85. I did both and got very similar results.

Triathlon traine Joe Friel maintains that lactate threshold is the single parameter that you should use as a anchor for all your cardio training.

Using his articles and book I was able to get a very accurate lactate threshold information without any lab testing.

First you run his 30 minutes test (Google Joe Friel CP30), my result from it was 164bpm, but I knew I could have pushed a little harder so I knew my real lactate threshold was a little higher. Then I did the "confirmation test", that is I run at 164bpm and then I icnreased the effort very slowly until my breathing changed. It was very easy to "feel" a change at 167bpm. Now I have a key parameter that can be used to calculate the zones very accurately in a proper way.

Science is great, but if you're always waiting in the science you are behind the curve. I prefer self experimentation along with seeing other people experiment and share their results.

Nick Roy said:

Science is great, but if you're always waiting in the science you are behind the curve. I prefer self experimentation along with seeing other people experiment and share their results.

this x1,000