Anatomy Of A Hinge Row

I have friends who can do chin ups with multiples of BW attached but fail miserably on their third rep of a hinge row My thoughts are that because of the concentric GH external rotation involved, the lat with its preference for internal rotation of the humerus is being simultaneously lengthened (by external rotation) and shortened (by adduction) and basically has no firing pattern for this type of contraction yet? Does anyone know exactly what's going on anatomically in this awesome little row? I'd love to know the history of it as well, who figured it out?? Look forward to the conversation

Cheers

Sam

Sam Deamer said:

I have friends who can do chin ups with multiples of BW attached

I'm not sure what the record is, but I think it's not much more than 1x bodyweight attached. So how many "multiples" are we supposedly talking about here?  

Are these weighted reps from a dead hang bringing their shoulders to the bar? Or have they been focused only on increasing weight and they do chicken neck to bent arm chin ups? 

I'm not sure exactly what the problem might be, but generally I believe it's a case of such sever tightness that they fatigue themselves just trying to move their own joints. But I think saying that they're shoulders are just severely fucked up is probably the best assessment I can come up with. 

Sam Deamer said:

... I have friends who can do chin ups with multiples of BW attached but fail miserably on their third rep of a hinge row  ...

- My creation.  

- This generally indicates weak rotator cuffs.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

When I started F1 I was able to perform 20 full range of motion chin ups; however I coud barely do 8 Hinge Rows on my first attempt and had major clunking noises from my shoulders.

I suspect the weakness was in the lower and middle traps and these 2 small muscles next to the traps that are on/under the Shoulder Blade.

I don't know the fancy Latin names for these muscless except that since I have been improving on my Hinge Rows and other F1 Exercises they have become quite a bit larger and noticable.  They are probably some sort of extarnal rotator.  I would hazard a guess that my shoulders were severely fucked up and disbalanced before I started F1.

I found doing some sets of 30 second holds at the top position really helped activate the weak spots when I started.

Coach Sommer said:

 

- This generally indicates weak rotator cuffs.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I was afraid of that answer...

Coach Sommer said:

- My creation.  

 

- This generally indicates weak rotator cuffs.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I was wondering why this progression took me four months, whereas the incline row I breezed through in two weeks. Even on warmup sets I can still feel the hinge row more greatly than the incline row. It is fair understanding that if the move isn't difficult and I'm using all the appropriate muscles and form to move on, correct? I hadn't experienced the same thing in any of the other exercises AFTER progressing from a difficult move. (my logic was that they would be progressively harder, ie HBP/PE2 --> PE3, while PE1 wasn't challenging at all). Makes sense, slow and steady I go...

In my opinion exercises shouldn’t be progressively harder, we all have strength imbalances. You might find some super easy steps and other hard as hell, but that’s just because your strength is imbalanced. The goal  is not actually to climb a rope without using our legs ( I can do it right know)  it should be covering all our imbalances and ultimately climbing a rope, this is what makes this program great!

just enjoy the trip, don’t think about the destination!

When I started Foundation I was under the mistaken impression that "progressions" meant that one element is a progression that gets you to the next.  With this perspective, it was easy to become frustrated and second guess the program when I'm living on PE1 for months at a time despite being able to perform far more advanced PEs at mastery.

I think this comes from traditional weight lifting/strength training culture. 

Over time, I've come to realize that PE1 isn't primarily a progression to PE2, per se.  Each element is a progression towards being a complete, functional athlete who is capable of performing the 7 basic movements in GST.  Each element is a self-contained, necessary component of this endeavor, hence there is no skipping.   

Therefore, one's ability to smoke PE5 doesn't offset the fact that PE4 (or, as is often the case for me, PE 1) is smoking you.  

Sven Ravnstag said:

 

Over time, I've come to realize that PE1 isn't primarily a progression to PE2, per se.

I think this is very important to understand. Sometimes Foundation can be presented as a clear path from A to Z, when in fact each step is both part of a progression and a goal by itself.

I've experienced some moves that have come quite quickly to me like Korean dips, whereas others (some of whom are are much more athletic than me) find them almost impossible. Other moves I haven't been able to figure out without working one on one with my coach, who provides me with supplementary exercises and stretches to break down the moves even further. I've hammered away at some elements for many months without progression. But by adding the right assistance moves, I can improve by leaps and bound in a few weeks.

In that light it's important to grasp that each element needs to be mastered, but just because you can't do PE 6, doesn't mean you just need to go back to PE 5, they are both interconnected yet distinct from each other. This is a notion that I see sometimes, which I find to be limited and flawed. Each person is a unique physiological puzzle that needs to be developed in a particular way to overcome individual obstacles.

Shaaahh dudeee woahhh. Epiphanies...Makes more sense now, hadn't conceptualized the workouts in that way before.

This exercise has a big rotator cuff emphasis. It targets the infraspinatus, rear delts, mid traps, rhomboids and biceps in a range of movement we are not use to. Tight pecs and anterior delts also make this exercise harder.

How hard should we squeeze the shoulder blades together or pull the shoulders back at the top?

If I can do these with full contraction of the scapula (and the proper hip hinge) for the whole 21-15-9 warmup I imagine that it's fair for me to say I've mastered it. I already told myself I had, however, I wanted a second opinion. I will upload a video the next run through (I ran out of data on my phone to record it today).

Thanks

No, you have to actually demonstrate mastery, there is no other acceptable equivalency.

It's not fair to say you've mastered a progression by using a standard completely different from the mastery standard.

Hinge row has a very strange mechanic , i've completed it long time ago but everytime is use it to condition my elbows I have serious doms on the following day. Basically is what works for me, is an all-life exercise!

Daniel Taylor-Shaut said:

If I can do these with full contraction of the scapula (and the proper hip hinge) for the whole 21-15-9 warmup I imagine that it's fair for me to say I've mastered it. I already told myself I had, however, I wanted a second opinion. I will upload a video the next run through (I ran out of data on my phone to record it today).

 

Thanks

Where are you getting those number 21-15-9.  Mastery is 5x15.

After you master and element and wish to use it as a warmup, this is an example template to get warm for the real work. Its in the text of the program.

dynamo said:

Where are you getting those number 21-15-9.  Mastery is 5x15.

^^^Right, but just because you can bang out 21 reps once, doesn't mean you can do 5 sets of 15 reps with mastery form with only the iM as rest (which is the standard for mastery of this element). There is no "assumed" mastery, you either demonstrate it or you don't move on.

Mark Collins said:

This exercise has a big rotator cuff emphasis. It targets the infraspinatus, rear delts, mid traps, rhomboids and biceps in a range of movement we are not use to. Tight pecs and anterior delts also make this exercise harder.

This one made my lower traps sore as well, especially on the left (problematic) side. I like it because it makes my shoulder feel better.

Angry much Keegan? Sorry I didn't specify, but I meant to add on that I had passed the 5x15 rep scheme and now use it as a warmup scheme: 21, 15, and 9, however, since I hadn't uploaded a video, I was wondering about the mastery question. I've managed the mastery component numerously. Thanks.

I doubt anyone's angry. It just sounded like you used a warmup recommendation as proof of mastery in your last post. We care very much about our standards around here, as you've probably realized. 

Not angry at all Daniel, sometimes subtext is difficult to read via a purely text based communication method like forums. I was simply stating the fact that the course mandates that we actually demonstrate mastery; this is something that newbies to the program tend to overlook and instead assume that because they can perform later exercises to mastery that they can just skip ahead past the "easier" progressions. Not knowing you or what you had or had not actually done I was simply stating the standards for Mastery in case you had missed them.

Had you specified that you have actually demonstrated Mastery (and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you have), my response would have been different.

Yeah, my bad on being vague. Sometimes I try to be brief to my own disservice.