long time on elements

I started with F1 almost 2 years ago, and I've progressed nicely in some exercises, but there's three which have been a real grind. They're MN/PE1 (tuck up), SL/PE1 (ABH) and HBP/PE2 (push-ups).

The first two i've been doing for the whole time, and the push-ups I've probably been doing for a year and a half. They've all had a few stops and starts as I realised I wasn't doing something correctly, fixing it, and dropping back the sets and reps. At the moment I'm hitting 5x15 on tuck-ups and push-ups (for about the last 2 cycles), but they don't feel "easy" towards the end, and form does falter and tempo slows, so no mastery at the moment. ABH I'm at 5x36 and there's shaking there after 2 years.

Obviously there's no objective measure here, but I think I try my best with these exercises. I've started adding a sixth set to really push me with the tuck ups and push-ups, but sometimes it feels like I'm pushing up against a wall that will never break. Is there something wrong with my attitude or approach? I know I've made a little bit of progress, but it feels like nothing a lot of the time. And if these ones will take 2 years, will they all take 2 years for me? It makes me realise how weak I am, mentally and physically, and how much I have to change that.

I'm curious if others have experienced these kinds of problems, and if they've managed to surprise themselves and break through.

You're in luck!   the Side Lever progressions have been completely restructured.   Check out the new exercises.

thanks for the heads up, vinca! I hadn't even noticed that ><

I know the situation: I'm stuck at RC/PE1 and HBP/PE2 since I restarted F1 now a bit more than 6 months ago. During those 6 months it was not really a slow progress in those two elements but rather I'm still more or less stuck at the level I was when I started them. That was and still is RC/PE1 about 4x12 and HPB/PE2 about 5x12. I'll keep it going for another 6 months and see what's going to happen...

It seems that some people respond better to the standard template than others. It makes me think if there would be a better template for 'non responders' or if it's just a case of other factors, like nutrition or rest. Maybe there is progress but it's just not as visible such as improvements in form or connectivity tissue.

Nutrition and rest are certainly factors that affect progress. Rest more than nutrition I guess. But what about age? Age does not seem to be much of a topic in the GB forums. Is there some general consensus about the relation of age and the ability to progress with strength and mobility? Is there even an age when progress cannot be made any more given the fact that one is not completely untrained?

Luzian said:

Nutrition and rest are certainly factors that affect progress. Rest more than nutrition I guess. But what about age? Age does not seem to be much of a topic in the GB forums. Is there some general consensus about the relation of age and the ability to progress with strength and mobility? Is there even an age when progress cannot be made any more given the fact that one is not completely untrained?

A 60-year-old woman recently started training karate with her grandkids at my dojo.  When she started, she could barely hold a pushup position.  Three months later she did her first, albeit shallow, full pushup.  Nearly a year later she now easily does 10 pushups with decent ROM.

Unquestionably progress will be slower if you are 81 as opposed to 18, but using age as an excuse is often nothing more than a self-imposed limitation.  I'm reminded of my favourite quote from Marcus Aurelius: 

Do not give up because you find something hard, but recognize that if something is humanly possible, you can do it too.

Yeah, I fully agree. But that was not my point. The 60-year-old woman was completely untrained in regards to pushups I guess and therefore she was able to make progress even at that age. That's what I ment with "given the fact that one is not completely untrained". 

Let's imagine someone is training to hold a perfect planche for as long as possible his entire life starting at age 10. Will he still be able to improve the hold time at age 40? Or even 60? I guess not.

Maybe not (although remember that Jack Lelane set most of his records after the age of 65, and Coach Sakamoto set his handstand push-up record at age 50, so progress can certainly be achieved well past what many of us consider our physical primes), but if you had trained to hold max perfect planks from age 10, you should have no problem passing the Foundation mastery requirements of 5 sets of 60 seconds. The whole reason we are unable to simply demonstrate mastery and move on is that we are in fact untrained/undertrained/unconditioned in these movement patterns/exercises and need to build/rebuild our bodies.

I think it's also helpful to remember that connective tissues require quite a substantial amount of time to rebuild themselves and that we should be looking at things long term (Coach has mentioned looking at things from a 6 months to 1 year time frame in regards to progress), which I know is difficult for us Westerners who are used to instant gratification and fitness programs advertising "get ripped and strong in just 30 minutes a day in just 8 weeks!" Real progress is slower to come by (as many of us GB'ers know all too well).

My progress was stalled for the longest time on pushups too. Couldn't ever make the jump from 5x9 to 4x12. It was a mix of nutrition and technique. For nutrition, it wasn't a matter of what I wasn't getting in, but what I was. I discovered I was slightly intolerant to dairy and wheat (kind of cliche, and it made me sad) so it was causing low grade inflammation. My body was spending too many resources recovering from that and not enough on my workout. When I cut those things I started progressing. The other thing is form. What helped is knowing why am I doing pushups. What are they leading to? Pseudo Planche pushups. if you can do one of those with ok form, the form for pushups should become clearer.

Jason Dupree said:

My progress was stalled for the longest time on pushups too. Couldn't ever make the jump from 5x9 to 4x12. It was a mix of nutrition and technique. For nutrition, it wasn't a matter of what I wasn't getting in, but what I was. I discovered I was slightly intolerant to dairy and wheat (kind of cliche, and it made me sad) so it was causing low grade inflammation. My body was spending too many resources recovering from that and not enough on my workout. When I cut those things I started progressing. The other thing is form. What helped is knowing why am I doing pushups. What are they leading to? Pseudo Planche pushups. if you can do one of those with ok form, the form for pushups should become clearer.

Jason, how did you discovered that you're intolerant to dairy and wheat ? What were the symptoms ?

I just paid attention to how I felt. When I ate it I felt like I was under a pile of bricks. When I cut it, I felt better. After that happened a few times I decided to stop trying to add it back in, and I've felt great ever since. It took me a while to realize the correlation between how I felt and what I was eating though.

I don't respond well to the endurance training. I've noticed what works best for me is 2 things

1: build reps first then add sets

2: get to the end of the second cycle then perform something harder for a couple of cycles and then come back to the easier variation.

When I was stuck on hbp pe2 I could do 2/3 the amount of PPP as hbp pe2 so I worked PPP for a couple of cycles and then came back to hbp and went from barely getting week 7 to jumping straight into week 10 and then mastery a couple weeks later. Alas I got stuck on PPP now as well.... I think this time due to lack of rest though as life is chaotic atm.

I am very surprised at the amount of time it is taking some people to progress. I definitely do not believe it should be taking anywhere near that amount of time. Progress should be at a good rate as your body breaks down and rebuilds itself. It is natural for people to get stuck on particular movements as we all have our own hang ups but specific and deliberate action should be taken to move through this in good time as well. A few things come to mind as to why some people are getting stuck for extreme amounts of time.

- Not being consistent with your training.

- Not doing the movements with precision and mental awareness. (You need to be present)

- Not taking action in other parts of your training. (Diet, mental aptitude, supplementary work)

- Lack of intention

You should be taking deliberate and massive action towards each PE this is not something you can just go through the motions for.

IronHarshaw said:

I am very surprised at the amount of time it is taking some people to progress. I definitely do not believe it should be taking anywhere near that amount of time. Progress should be at a good rate as your body breaks down and rebuilds itself. It is natural for people to get stuck on particular movements as we all have our own hang ups but specific and deliberate action should be taken to move through this in good time as well. A few things come to mind as to why some people are getting stuck for extreme amounts of time.

 

- Not being consistent with your training.

- Not doing the movements with precision and mental awareness. (You need to be present)

- Not taking action in other parts of your training. (Diet, mental aptitude, supplementary work)

- Lack of intention

 

You should be taking deliberate and massive action towards each PE this is not something you can just go through the motions for.

It is a bit arrogant to assume that stalled progressed is one's own fault. I agree that it could be, but it is not always like that.

Simply, the standard high rep templates do not work for everyone. People who have a surplus of strength endurance or a higher concentration of slow twitch fibers in their muscles (or other genetically advantageous traits) will have an easy time following the template.

Some times it is definitely because I need to fix some part of my diet/training mentality/sleep but the more I train the less common those things become. I have always done well with powerful explosive high strength low endurance exercise. Any time I've tried to build endurance my body takes considerably longer.

My specialty in rock climbing used to be big powerful dynamic movement during bouldering buy get me on a long climb and I'm far more rubbish. Took years to get to the point where I could last through a difficult 20 meter + climb

I seem to be a slow responder to exercise myself. It's always been that way since I was a kid. It's almost like exercise is more of a concept and I just have to have faith that I'll benefit from it. What seems to work for me is to really be consistent on just a handful of things. I also seem to do better with less volume but more frequency. As long as I can add a rep or two every couple of workouts, I'm making progress.

I haven't been doing all of Foundation lately but have been working on pushups (and some other stuff) and just reached 15 reps in the first set. Very exciting!

IronHarshaw said:

I am very surprised at the amount of time it is taking some people to progress. I definitely do not believe it should be taking anywhere near that amount of time. Progress should be at a good rate as your body breaks down and rebuilds itself. It is natural for people to get stuck on particular movements as we all have our own hang ups but specific and deliberate action should be taken to move through this in good time as well. A few things come to mind as to why some people are getting stuck for extreme amounts of time.

 

- Not being consistent with your training.

- Not doing the movements with precision and mental awareness. (You need to be present)

- Not taking action in other parts of your training. (Diet, mental aptitude, supplementary work)

- Lack of intention

 

You should be taking deliberate and massive action towards each PE this is not something you can just go through the motions for.

This is one of the dumbest self-righteous posts I've read in a long time. 

IronHarshaw said:

I am very surprised at the amount of time it is taking some people to progress. I definitely do not believe it should be taking anywhere near that amount of time. Progress should be at a good rate as your body breaks down and rebuilds itself. It is natural for people to get stuck on particular movements as we all have our own hang ups but specific and deliberate action should be taken to move through this in good time as well. A few things come to mind as to why some people are getting stuck for extreme amounts of time.

 

- Not being consistent with your training.

- Not doing the movements with precision and mental awareness. (You need to be present)

- Not taking action in other parts of your training. (Diet, mental aptitude, supplementary work)

- Lack of intention

 

You should be taking deliberate and massive action towards each PE this is not something you can just go through the motions for.

What about those who do those things and more? It would be a better idea to figure out what is holding someone back, what their weak link is, than to assume they are lazy. Sometimes it takes a knowledgeable coach or trainer to see the weak link. There are so many variables in training, diet, recovery, and physiology that not everyone realizes why they are busting their ass and still isn't making progress. There's always a reason. Only sometimes is that reason laziness.

-MR said:

This is one of the dumbest self-righteous posts I've read in a long time. 

Luckily it does not happen too much on this forum

I've never missed one single workout since I started in september 2014 and I'm always giving it 100% attention and concentration. I've adjusted my sleeping habits to 8+ hours per night and I also believe that my diet is ok. I eat mostly unprocessed foods and no simple sugars at all, calorie intake is a few hundret calories above maintenance level. I'm 40 years old -- 20 would be better but I think a few things should still be possible to achieve.

In my experience progress is not a linear thing. If you are new to physical exercise your progress curve is pretty steep but it flattens more and more as your training history evolves.

I personally don't have a GST background at all, but I have a history of a many years of consistent training in martial arts and fitness programs like P90X and similar stuff. I consider myself to be on the somewhat flattened side of the progress curve so I guess all that I -- and probably others in the same situation -- can do is keep at it and enjoy the slow journey. That's what I'm doing for now

Luzian said:

I've never missed one single workout since I started in september 2014 and I'm always giving it 100% attention and concentration. I've adjusted my sleeping habits to 8+ hours per night and I also believe that my diet is ok. I eat mostly unprocessed foods and no simple sugars at all, calorie intake is a few hundret calories above maintenance level. I'm 40 years old -- 20 would be better but I think a few things should still be possible to achieve.

 

In my experience progress is not a linear thing. If you are new to physical exercise your progress curve is pretty steep but it flattens more and more as your training history evolves.

 

I personally don't have a GST background at all, but I have a history of a many years of consistent training in martial arts and fitness programs like P90X and similar stuff. I consider myself to be on the somewhat flattened side of the progress curve so I guess all that I -- and probably others in the same situation -- can do is keep at it and enjoy the slow journey. That's what I'm doing for now

Sounds like you are doing everything you can, and for that I congratulate you. I know personally in my training I have had to get creative to accomplish particular movements. I believe it is important to always be making progress in some area of your training, and a lot of the time that will come back to surprise you when you try and old element or something you struggled with, you may suddenly have "gotten" it.

One of the best things I ever did was go play on the park like a kid. Monkey bars, swings, jumping over bars. Did things for my body and added to my training in ways I can't record or directly explain.

Luzian said:

I've never missed one single workout since I started in september 2014 and I'm always giving it 100% attention and concentration. I've adjusted my sleeping habits to 8+ hours per night and I also believe that my diet is ok. I eat mostly unprocessed foods and no simple sugars at all, calorie intake is a few hundret calories above maintenance level. I'm 40 years old -- 20 would be better but I think a few things should still be possible to achieve.

In my experience progress is not a linear thing. If you are new to physical exercise your progress curve is pretty steep but it flattens more and more as your training history evolves.

I personally don't have a GST background at all, but I have a history of a many years of consistent training in martial arts and fitness programs like P90X and similar stuff. I consider myself to be on the somewhat flattened side of the progress curve so I guess all that I -- and probably others in the same situation -- can do is keep at it and enjoy the slow journey. That's what I'm doing for now

Just out of curiosity, how do you know that you are a few hundred kcals over maintenance? I ask because unless you are gaining weight at a fairly regular rate and therefore adding additional mass to your frame (300 kcals per day is approximately 9,000 kcals extra per month, which would result in 2+ lbs gained), then there is really no way of knowing you are eating above maintenance. All calorie calculators are estimations.

If you are not recovering/progressing (and I should reiterate that we should be looking at progress on a 6 month+ timeline as connective tissues take considerably longer to adapt that muscle) are sleeping regularly and working hard like you are, then there may be a good chance that you may not in fact be eating enough, or enough of the right foods. How much protein are you eating?

Also, I doubt that many of us are coming close to our genetic potentials just being able to bang out 75 push-ups with short breaks (iM) between sets of 15 reps. If people were hitting plateaus on mastering the actual Hollow Back Press mastery, then yeah, that may in fact be due to getting close to your genetics limits, but unlikely with regular push-ups. Programs like P90X aren't even scratching the surface of what most of us are capable of strength or endurance wise.

For most of us at the earlier progressions our struggles are probably the result of mobility issues, very weak links in our kinetic chain that we never paid attention to (for instance the need to remain hollow, to actually touch out chest to the floor and lock out on every rep, not allowing our elbows to flair like 95% of people do when performing push-ups, and other strict form requirements), unwillingness to push through discomfort, inconsistency, or due to some weakness in our recovery modalities (not enough rest, too frequent of stimulus, poor nutritional habits, too much training to and through failure, etc...). Or, in contrast we could all be progressing just fine, but have unrealistic expectations regarding what "normal" rates of progress should be (which programs like P90X and the like exploit and re-enforce in their marketing) and instead just need to work on our patience and perseverance muscles rather than trying to jump ship and find our own "way".

All of this is of course just my opinion (and I am no expert on the subject), so take it with a grain of salt. If what people are doing is working for them, then that is ultimately what matters.

Thanks for your thoughts Keegan!

I am in fact gaining weight. I started to measure in december and from back then to today I went from 73kg to 78kg (so yes, just about 2 lbs per month) and from 8% to 9% bodyfat. That is a gain of about 3kg of lean mass in about four months. Of course the measurements are just an approximation, especially the bodyfat that I measure using a caliper. The results are varying a bit from day to day.

This brings me to another topic that I've been thinking about lately. Gaining lean mass is fine I guess but I've also noticed that doing for example a ring muscle up (which as a novice is very hard for me) is considerably more challenging at 78kg than at 73kg. I have a little conflict there and my current plan is to loose some weight again. Just for the record, I'm 179cm.

A typical day of eating for me goes like this: fat 40% (almonds, avocado, canola oil, ...), carbs 30% (millet flakes, skim milk, vegetables, ...), protein 30% (chicken, cottage cheese, skim milk, almonds, ...).

I fully agree with you about the 75 push-ups not being at the genetic limit. And yes, I did them exactly as you describe with flairing elbows back in the P90X days. It is thanks to the GB program that I've now changed my form and they have become so much harder. On the other hand with strict pull-ups for example, I seem not to be able to progress. I've reached being able to perform 14 reps more than a year ago and I've never managed to get to number 15. But I'm currently not really training pull-ups as they did not come up in my F1 schedule.

I'll stick to looking at progress in the 6 months timeline and will see if I can complete HPB/PE2 by september 2015. If not, I might reconsider my training strategy because I think one year on a single PE should be enough.

Sounds like you are on top of things nutrition wise (though personally I would go 40% protein, 30% carbs, 30% fat, but understand that you may be going higher fat for the hormonal benefits).

Yeah, I think mass gain would be an individual thing. Some people might benefit from it (provided it was mostly muscle) while others might be hindered; we are after all lifting our bodyweight, so the more of it you have the more you have to lift. Up to a certain point more muscle mass is an asset, but beyond our maximum efficiency point any we have will simply mean more effort for the same results.

And as far as progress if you are gaining weight and either progressing or even stagnating in reps it would be equivalent to adding weight to your bench press and increasing or even maintaining your reps and claiming that you hadn't progressed; clearly no one would say that with traditional free weight training and neither should we with regards to Bodyweight training.