Bent Hollow Body Rock, FL/PE2

How can I keep myself in one spot, exactly where I started?

As I rock, I keep going down and my body rotate clockwise. 

What's wrong? 

I had this problem a lot. What fixed it for me was trying not to overemphasize the forward half (shoulders coming up). This way I stayed in one spot, and it pointed out my weakness in stabilizing my post pelvic tilt, as the exercise started to really burn!    As for the rotation, you're probably favoring your right side more, and it is probably stronger than your left, so I would focus one cycle on pure technique work. Once I started doing that, I've done better in progressing, as I don't have to go back and re-train new neuromuscular patterns to address the bad ones. Hope that helps!

Hanlim Lee said:

How can I keep myself in one spot, exactly where I started?

 

 

As I rock, I keep going down and my body rotate clockwise. 

 

 

What's wrong? 

Uneven strength or bad activation. Focus on your weak side with only the rocking you can manage without rotating. As you build strength or learn correct activation you can continue.

Stephen Greer said:

I had this problem a lot. What fixed it for me was trying not to overemphasize the forward half (shoulders coming up). This way I stayed in one spot, and it pointed out my weakness in stabilizing my post pelvic tilt, as the exercise started to really burn!    As for the rotation, you're probably favoring your right side more, and it is probably stronger than your left, so I would focus one cycle on pure technique work. Once I started doing that, I've done better in progressing, as I don't have to go back and re-train new neuromuscular patterns to address the bad ones. Hope that helps!

Thanks for the answer.

What do you mean by " focus one cycle on  pure technique work " ?

you mean  sticking to doing sets and reps in perfect form even though I can't complete the assigned sets and reps? 

Alexander Egebak said:

Uneven strength or bad activation. Focus on your weak side with only the rocking you can manage without rotating. As you build strength or learn correct activation you can continue.

Bad activation !

Could you be more specific? 

what's different from good activation? 

Hanlim Lee said:

Bad activation !

 

Could you be more specific? 

 

what's different from good activation? 

Bad activation means basically uneven activation, whether that is due to uneven strength or not. You must learn to even out and compensate to your weaker side

For me, this sorted itself out as I progressed through the template.

Zach Armijo said:

Post a video to clean it up the quickest and get on the right path. Following the above posts, the most prevalent issue in the "rocking" elements is "body segmentation". What I mean by that is when you are rocking, you are allowing your body to move in segments, changing angles of the legs and torso when rocking, using momentum(conscious or not), when you should be moving as a single unit. I see countless videos of torsos being tossed up, and knees/legs flicked out to maintain the rocks which is exactly what we don't want.  

here is the video. 

https://youtu.be/rSguNiHuDSg

Watched the first set. You don't seem to be rotating, but you do seem to be changing the angle between your stomach and tights, which should be minimized (I don't think it's entirely possible to go through 60 rocks without some propulsion). Other than that, increase the angle a bit. It's supposed to be more like 45 degrees, not perpendicular to the torso. It will actually reduce the ROM (an L can rotate much more than an open v) and make you less suceptible to use a lot of impulse.

I'm experiencing big problems with FL/PE2.  I can't get past Week 6 (4X36r), today was my fourth time on this cycle.  I haven't seen any improvements in stamina, perhaps it's a matter of efficiency/form.  I will work on this and then consider playing with the breaking plateaus strategies!

Thanks to everyone for the above comments on form.

Zach Armijo said:

Of course it is entirely possible to not use any momentum.

 

In the rocks, you need to learn how to maintain a shape and be able to transfer tension to produce your rocks, not through moving different parts of your body. That may sound weird, but think of it as once you hold a shape (hollow, arch, etc...) your body is now a single unit. All the different parts held together as one; as such, they will move as one. 

Zach, I'm puzzled... How is it possible to apply force and create movement without moving? I mean, it doesn't hold up in physics.

Any Force that alters movement creates acceleration, which measures speed alteration over time. Therefore, if there is acceleration, there is also relative body movement (no no single unit here). Otherwise, if Force does not alter movement, then it's the same as not existing.

Also, as far as energy conservation goes, it's impossible to n similar reps without adding in some energy in order to make up for energy loss caused by friction.

Would you care to elaborate further? I did 5x60 last week with minimal movement (angle between torso and legs didn't vary more than 2 or 3 degrees), but it seems it had bad form and that won't do any good.

Zach Armijo said:

Propulsion is such an ugly word to use. Of course it is entirely possible to not use any momentum. Any certified GB Athlete and Affiliate are tested and passed under such conditions. Don't fool yourself into thinking it's possible to pass with less. 

 

 He doesn't appear to be rotating much from the side, but he is clearly using a massive amount of momentum from his legs and torso. The reps are wildly uneven as far as consistency goes. There is a lot of flicking coming from the legs to rock back and also rock forward. The movement should be smooth throughout and not clunky and violent. In the rocks, you need to learn how to maintain a shape and be able to transfer tension to produce your rocks, not through moving different parts of your body. That may sound weird, but think of it as once you hold a shape (hollow, arch, etc...) your body is now a single unit. All the different parts held together as one; as such, they will move as one. 

 

For beginners it will be very challenging to learn how to hold enough tension to make this unity with room to spare to stack more tension in the right places to move. Add breathing and extended sets to the mix...  

thanks for the comment. I think you are teaching me right direction. 

Just a few questions to clarify some points.

#1.

'the reps are wildy uneven' means I did different reps in different sets, right?

#2.

well, in the demo video, even the model athlete seems to use massive amount of momentum.

He not only kicks but also crunches to keep the swing. 

If what you said is correct,

( I think you are correct because using momentum doesn't give me enough stimulus in abs, 

which is strange considering that FL/PE1 was strong core exercise and FL/PE2 is it's sequel)

there is a serious problem. 

The video on the web page is the only source for online trainees like myself. 

If the video is wrong, there is no way I can't perform this correctly. 

your comment is very helpful but I really need to see. 

Do you have any form check video who mastered this drill?

please link me. Otherwise i fell it's dead end(it's my third time repeating the cycle.... damn). 

I really appreciate your willingness to reply. However, I still can't understand how to generate movement without the flicks you mention. Even in the course video, it's possible to see the torso of the athlete lower a bit (less tension) when going up and his legs also shake (when looking at his feet, they make semi-circular movements, probably from releasing tension).

Either way, I am not saying one should kick or throw torso to move. But tension transfer that does not translate to movement won't create movement. So, can you point some resource where we could see the difference between properly and improperly executed technique?

Thanks, Zach. Will give a shot at the ball today to see what happens =)

If it would be possible to show videos demonstrating common errors and the proper version in tandem, it would be absolutely awesome. Seeing the correct AND incorrect form would be really interesting, as some details aren't obvious until shown and can make or break progress.

Thanks again.

Iguanus said:

Watched the first set. You don't seem to be rotating, but you do seem to be changing the angle between your stomach and tights, which should be minimized (I don't think it's entirely possible to go through 60 rocks without some propulsion). Other than that, increase the angle a bit. It's supposed to be more like 45 degrees, not perpendicular to the torso. It will actually reduce the ROM (an L can rotate much more than an open v) and make you less suceptible to use a lot of impulse.

Well I checked the video and it seems thighs are perpendicular to torso and calves are 45 degrees to torso.

the 45 degree angle you mentioned is the angle between calves and torso, right? 

And I totally agree to you. We need videos comparing bad and good forms.

think the demo videos provided is not enough to follow.

Hanlim Lee said:

Well I checked the video and it seems thighs are perpendicular to torso and calves are 45 degrees to torso.

 

the 45 degree angle you mentioned is the angle between calves and torso, right? 

 

 

And I totally agree to you. We need videos comparing bad and good forms.

 

think the demo videos provided is not enough to follow.

Yep. I wasn't very clear, so let me make it better.

(unable to use google drive for pics. Weird. Anyway, you can see the pics also here)

If you compare your form to atheltes form, there are a few differences:

- Angle on hips and knees.

You're making two square angles (hips to upper legs and knees to lower legs). Model is doing a nearly square angle from knees to lower legs, but has his hips more open (wider than 90 degrees on hip-legs joint). If you open your legs like that, there will be more stress on your abs, activating it more. Also, as your angle gets wider, the total ROM decreases (see how you can rotate 90 degrees before feet touch the ground, but models can't travel even half of that).

- Whole body tension.

It seems that creating whole body tension is the point here. It may be why model is contracted from head (take a look at his neck!) to toes (look at lower legs and toes on tension). You're creating tension on the upper body, but lower lesg seems relaxed. I don't really know if this part will make a difference, but, for me, tensing the whole body helps me to make the form more stable. Therefore, I too contract the lower legs.

Hope that helps you too. Will post again tonight after trying Zach's advice.

When I want to see good form next to bad form I usually video myself on my phone and hold it next to my screen as I watch the demonstration video.  And whalaaa good form next to bad.

What I noticed and discovered through practicing FL/PE2 (still have yet to master them) is that the initial momentum is built with the initial "sit-up" (watch the demo video carefully and you will see that the athlete begins by sitting his torso up and assuming a BHB position with his feet still on the floor). This then creates potential energy as the weight of the upper torso begins falling to the ground. If you are strong enough (which you should be if you truly mastered PE1) to hold your BHB position this should result in your lower body being pulled up off the ground as you rock back. Once you reach the end range of the backwards portion of your roll your hips and legs falling back to earth now create the energy to pull your upper body off the floor again.

Like Zach said, you maintain your rock/momentum by utilizing selective muscular tension to add just enough energy to the already created pull of gravity. A little extra lift/tension in the lower core as the shoulders fall and hips/legs rise and a little extra lift/tension in the upper core as the hips/legs fall and the shoulders/upper body rise.

At least that is my experience. Being a GB certified athlete Zach is a more reputable source of info than myself though, so I will default to his (or any other GB athlete or coach's) wisdom if they disagree with my interpretation.

Good to know I'm on the right track then.

Folks, here goes a little video where I try to show segmentation and kicking bad habits. As the video goes, I try to correct it and comment when they show up.

Turn on the subtitles

In the end of the video, I guess it's the best form I could produce today. However, it's way to slow. Was my spoting for errors accurate? What would you suggest?

In the end of the video you kind of held your knees more straight in an attempt to elongate your lever and somewhat pull your center of gravity higher in your legs, don't do that. Your BHBR position should look just like your BHBH position just with movement.

I'd personally say your last couple reps using the larger ball behind your knees were your best, but again don't take my word as official.

I see it, Keegan. When you say last reps with bigger ball, the after adjusting the balls, 0:21?

Zach Armijo said:

 

 

***I am not saying that there won't be any momentum; there will. But that momentum is created through the shifting of body tension, and not moving of body parts to assist in generating that momentum (torso, knee, leg flicks)***

I got the point thanks to Keegan, Iguanus and you. 

shifting of tensions! 

Would you make it more specific? 

like.. when upper body rise and legs fall, tension should be here....

and when legs rise and upper body falls, tension should be there. 

https://youtu.be/_hM1aG3_a2A

I retried. 

I focused on whole body tension so I tried to squeeze my legs as if there were small balls between them. 

I think I fixed leg angle but still I create momentum by my torso. 

I don't get Zach Armijo 's 'momentum created by shifting of tension'. 

think he is right but CAN'T FEEL what it is. 

any tips? lol

When I tried this today I tried to keep tension in full body and in the curvature to hold the shape as you said. I find when I have full tension like this it seems easy to roll back and forth with not a lot of effort. Keeping it going rep after rep is another thing but workin at it.  If I slack off on the tension I seem to loose momentum and requires more help from legs or torso to keep rocking, as I played with this today.  Doing it the way suggested I don't feel like I'm using any body part to keep going, just changes in tension in the core it seems.  Slight Increase on roll forward, slightly less on way back, while staying tight in position. For whatever reason I like this movement and feels more natural for me than the previous one. Thanks for the tips!