A year with sPL/PE5

Of all the exercises in F1 this is the one I have struggled the most to understand. Some say protract more but there is not more than max? Some say hips lower = harder, but planche is straight so why not train straight(?) also when lowering hip I lose form in back and all tensions goes to shoulders. I hear "depress" but see athlete in the video "lift" his shoulders, making me struggle balancing between tension in the shoulders from arm angle(/depression?) and traps/upper back when doing as in the video. 

I feel my sPL training has close to only been about trial and error, and locked at block 2. I finally (today) found a way to keep the back straight by activating a muscle in the middle of the middle back, I think it may be the one called "serratus posterior inferior"? I try once in the clip to depress using the lats but it makes me lose the tension so I return. I feel pretty strong but handicapped by a lack of understanding of this PE.

I don't think I can protract more, even when just standing up (like Dillons demonstration) or doing it standing to a wall. Maybe can make it look so by rounding the back.

What to do? Anybody got medicine for this frustration of mine? Form check from experienced?

video here:
http://youtu.be/14_rVvubcVE

Nino Begovic said:

Some say protract more but there is not more than max?

 

That's not the max protraction your body is capable, it's only the max you can output at this intensity, meaning it's probably too much.

If you kneel down, hands on the floor (like the firs frame of your video) and you protract as much as you can from there (so not carrying any weight) can you get more?

If so, it's strength you're missing.

 

Some say hips lower = harder, but planche is straight so why not train straight(?)

You said it, because it's easier.

By piking at hips you're basically lowering the bar (not to mention the bad habit), making the exercise easier and easier, so you'll never be able to improve your strength and transition to harder drills

Nino Begovic said:

Some say hips lower = harder, but planche is straight so why not train straight(?)

But you're not actually straight, your upper body is just parallel to the ground. You need to drop your hips more to have a completely straight body.

I used this problem with piking. In my opinion this is one of the things where mirrors at a gym are actually useful. Use a mirror/live video feed/someone correcting you to have instant feedback, you want PPT but not excessive piking. You have to get the form drilled into your mind so do the exercise, check the mirror to see if you're piking and correct it in an instant and keep the correction and keep checking.

As for depression of the scapulae, my cue is to feel some tension in the armpits and trapezius to lock your shoulders down whereas protraction is all about pushing with your back and widening it. One usefull cue for protraction is to think of corkscrewing your arms into the ground whilst keeping them straight or spreading the floor apart while pushing.

I always start these on my knees, then like in PE1 get maximum protraction, then I push my feet back so I'm in a plank and then finally start the lean.

Practising protraction against a wall (like a wall pushup) is a great way to get the "feel" of these.

At the beginning of your video tour protraction looks good but you lose it prey quick.

Lean fordward with the same form you have at 0:03, that is correct form. You've to do it with a mirror or front camera of a phone, something too see what you're doing with your body in that moment. Without this possibility, you're guessing with your physical body, not a great way to learn. You've to watch yourself and only then you'll be able to correct the things.

Ok well I thought parallel to ground was good but I understand now why it is a bad habit, so I will quit that.

emilianop said:

That's not the max protraction your body is capable, it's only the max you can output at this intensity, meaning it's probably too much.

If you kneel down, hands on the floor (like the firs frame of your video) and you protract as much as you can from there (so not carrying any weight) can you get more?

If so, it's strength you're missing.

emilianop whether I do it on a wall, kneeling down or in plank, the scaps do not go more forward. It simply stops. From my viewpoint, in the video my protraction is pretty much equal throughout the video but the difference being that I flatten the back before leaning. Maybe I am wrong.

Adriano Augusto said:

Lean fordward with the same form you have at 0:03, that is correct form. You've to do it with a mirror or front camera of a phone, something too see what you're doing with your body in that moment. Without this possibility, you're guessing with your physical body, not a great way to learn. You've to watch yourself and only then you'll be able to correct the things.

Is this better? If yes, what? What more is needed?

http://youtu.be/aDUvCLBEwag

Body line looks good but like others have said your definitely lacking protraction, put some vids up of previous progressions most relevant would probably be of scap shrugs from the angle of the demonstration vid. whip your shirt off so people can see how your shoulders are moving and someone will be able to help.

I suspected for you, as it was for me, that dropping the hips also helps to focus tension higher in the back. Which appears to be the case.

It looks good to me. I agree that shirtless is even better, but just for nit picking. From my perspective you should focusing on building with this form. Of course, keeping your eye on improving towards perfection.   Others might disagree though.

Nino Begovic said:

 

emilianop whether I do it on a wall, kneeling down or in plank, the scaps do not go more forward. It simply stops. From my viewpoint, in the video my protraction is pretty much equal throughout the video but the difference being that I flatten the back before leaning. Maybe I am wrong.

I guess you know yourself better than what we can do from a couple of videos, so if you say they don't go further forward, they just don't.

tom040287 said:

Body line looks good but like others have said your definitely lacking protraction, put some vids up of previous progressions most relevant would probably be of scap shrugs from the angle of the demonstration vid. whip your shirt off so people can see how your shoulders are moving and someone will be able to help.

So I gave it another shot and took a few videos. If I look carefully I can at first see the scaps clearly, but very very slowly the visibility starts to fade. I can not feel this while doing it but perhaps a mirror would help with this, like some have said. Also I tried not to pike this time. Well anyway, I may have done PE1 and/or some other PE's incorrectly. How is the form this time? Should I keep going? Restart from PE1?

Here is video:

http://youtu.be/MNvePBmpEnE

I may be putting my foot in my mouth here, since I am no where near this PE yet, but watching the demo vid there seems to be a "compactness" in the athlete I don't see on your's. In the demo, the upper and lower body seem to be connected. The body shifts forward as a whole and I think the PPT could be part of the answer. In your videos, the hips sag a little. I seems as thought you are "carrying" your hips and legs forward instead of making it a whole body movement. I think the weight of the hips and legs are what may be making the protraction seem insufficient and making the move more difficult. Maybe contracting glutes and hamstrings to get both halves of the body to connect could help here?. 

In the last video it looks like you're trying so hard to protract you're actually hunching and bending in the middle of your back. Notice how in the course video everything slopes away from the upper back, there's no hunch in the mid back. Keep the tension up high in the back while protracting and depressing the shoulders. Extend through your toes, tense your quads, rotate your hips to flatten your lower back (ppt) while tensing your abs your abs at the same time. And push off the ground, hard, don't just lean on your arms. And rotate your arms outwards.

Like I said, just try building time. Learning to feel protraction and depression just takes time and experience to build your proprioception. Don't over analyze, just practice and DERP. It's a mnemonic device I use to cue myself properly.

Depress the shoulders

Extend from head to toe with your whole body tight

Rotate the hips and turn your arms out

Protract and Push off the floor

It helps if you say it like a giant toad.   There are a lot of things to keep track of so just keep scanning your body during your lean to try and build a better sense of your body position.

thecolin said:

It helps if you say it like a giant toad.

Ha ha ha! Excellent :-) more #whoisdatloonyinthegym

thecolin said:

And rotate your arms outwards.

Good post thecolin. This I find very useful, since starting yoga recently I've been thinking more about the rotation of the arms in this and the HBP progressions.

thecolin said:

In the last video it looks like you're trying so hard to protract you're actually hunching and bending in the middle of your back. Notice how in the course video everything slopes away from the upper back, there's no hunch in the mid back. Keep the tension up high in the back while protracting and depressing the shoulders. Extend through your toes, tense your quads, rotate your hips to flatten your lower back (ppt) while tensing your abs your abs at the same time. And push off the ground, hard, don't just lean on your arms. And rotate your arms outwards.

 

Like I said, just try building time. Learning to feel protraction and depression just takes time and experience to build your proprioception. Don't over analyze, just practice and DERP. It's a mnemonic device I use to cue myself properly.

 

Depress the shoulders

Extend from head to toe with your whole body tight

Rotate the hips and turn your arms out

Protract and Push off the floor

 

It helps if you say it like a giant toad.   There are a lot of things to keep track of so just keep scanning your body during your lean to try and build a better sense of your body position.

A lot of valuable information in your reply there. I will practice the DERP from now on and observe the results

What is still a little bit unclear is the push part and the rotation of the arms part. About the push part, when I just push the arms in the air as far as I can, I feel the nerves stretch - is this common? About the rotation, is this something you have noticed in my videos that I need to adjust? If I max rotate (outward) I target the biceps and associated connective tissue a lot more, similar to hands rotated backwards. Is this what you mean?

Just those two things + all other of your inputs indicate to me a lack of sufficient strength for the amount of lean performed.

I find that the external rotation helps with isolating the biceps like you mentioned. It's a good way of moderately increasing pressure on the elbows and connective tissue. Externally rotating the arms can also help activating the lats.

The push helps with activating muscles in your core, chest and arms. Looking at the last video, you could tighten your abs a bit in this position. And beyond a certain degree of lean, it becomes much more difficult to stay up unless you're pressing strongly into the ground. It's also good prep for the later elements.

Nino Begovic said:

About the push part, when I just push the arms in the air as far as I can, I feel the nerves stretch - is this common?

I think so. There are three major restrictions in flexibility. They can be physical, the muscles fascia can lack elasticity. It can be neurological, the brain restricts movement patterns to what it has learned as safe, and you need to expand these patterns to become more flexible. And lastly when you stretch. your nerves meed to glide to allow for the movement.

All of these factors need to work together to be flexible.