More on Nutrition

Hi all

 

I have been scouring the network here for info on nutrition, and have found alot, here in particular for pos and pre workout

 

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/1016-pre-and-post-workout-nutrition/

 

I am however unable to find info on more generic nutrition.. wonder if any of the guys on here can point me in the right direction

 

 

cheers

 

bret

 

My personal favorite nutrition guide is perfect healt diet by Paul jaminet. He analyzed the paleo diets and came up with a very good general recommendation based on what our bodies need rather than trying to go to some extreme.

Give it a read even if you don't follow the diet, you will find it quite informative. My basic diet is based on this with some changes for performance and recovery. I've also gone a step further on some of his ideas.

Daniel Burnham said:

My personal favorite nutrition guide is perfect healt diet by Paul jaminet. He analyzed the paleo diets and came up with a very good general recommendation based on what our bodies need rather than trying to go to some extreme.

Give it a read even if you don't follow the diet, you will find it quite informative. My basic diet is based on this with some changes for performance and recovery. I've also gone a step further on some of his ideas.

 

Hi Daniel, I have begun reading it and it´s very interesting! Would you care to say how you have changed it for performance and recovery? I guess it´s more carb and protein around training? 

 

Thanks:)

Yea. Basically after getting a steady diet it can help to optimize the nutrient timing around workout. I do a little bit of carbs before workout with a whole food protein about 1 hour before. Then I do a large starchy meal with protein after hard training sessions.

If you're doing an intense glycolytic workout (and arguments can be made for any type of workout), I can't stress enough how detrimental pre-workout carbs can be (depending on the rest of your diet).  In order to access intramuscular glycogen, get a large adrenaline release and be more sensitive to adrenaline, insulin levels need to be at or near baseline.  To do that, carbs need to be avoided at least 2 hours prior to training.  This is exactly why marathon runners "hit the wall."  They have plenty of stored energy, they just can't access it.

Damon Amato said:

If you're doing an intense glycolytic workout (and arguments can be made for any type of workout), I can't stress enough how detrimental pre-workout carbs can be (depending on the rest of your diet). In order to access intramuscular glycogen, get a large adrenaline release and be more sensitive to adrenaline, insulin levels need to be at or near baseline. To do that, carbs need to be avoided at least 2 hours prior to training. This is exactly why marathon runners "hit the wall." They have plenty of stored energy, they just can't access it.

Completely disagree. Carbs pre workout causes night and day difference for me. Without them I get tired about 30 min in and performance suffers. With a intra or preworkout source I feel good for several hours.

It's not really a matter of agreeing or disagreeing.  Facts are facts.  There are a sub group of the population with more copies of the salivary amylase gene and can tolerate high doses of carbs and metabolize them quicker, however I am not speaking in the context of your specific regimen and anecdotal N = 1 evidence, I'm talking about the majority of the population.

Damon Amato said:

It's not really a matter of agreeing or disagreeing.  Facts are facts.  There are a sub group of the population with more copies of the salivary amylase gene and can tolerate high doses of carbs and metabolize them quicker, however I am not speaking in the context of your specific regimen and anecdotal N = 1 evidence, I'm talking about the majority of the population.

Unfortunately I don't have much time to write any rebuttal.  You can easily see by searching pubmed that CHO ingestion has a positive effect in exercise performance in majority of the studies for high intensity and endurance activities.  In a short bout there won't be much difference, however reaching into hours of training will be different.  Its true that CHO ingestion preserves muscle and liver glycogen but that does not mean that they will never get used.  Plus for people wanting to recover more quickly from a workout this may actually be a good thing.  You can even see the effect of this advice on this board where people regularly report having increased capacity after taking the advice in the the workout nutrition threads Josh wrote some time ago.  I tend to be lower carb than his recommendations.

 

Lastly you used the example endurance activities which this board is mostly not concerned with.  You are right in that there is evidence that training "Low" on carbohydrates allows glycogen stores to be accessed more easily.  However, studies still show the benefit in competing in a "High" state.  This is where the idea of training low and competing high come from.  

 

Most people here won't benefit as much as I do from it because there are few people training gymnastic skills here which requires more than an hour of work.

That's a long response for not having a time for a rebuttal.  In any case, It's difficult to have a conversation if you don't want to recognize basic human physiology facts.  Short bouts of powerful exercise require muscle glycogen to be readily available for glycogenolysis, and insulin largely limits that response, as well as sensitivity and response of adrenaline.  This has been shown many times over.  If you do better with pre-workout carbs, that's fine.  I'm just reiterating what we know.

Daniel Burnham said:

My personal favorite nutrition guide is perfect healt diet by Paul jaminet. He analyzed the paleo diets and came up with a very good general recommendation based on what our bodies need rather than trying to go to some extreme.

Give it a read even if you don't follow the diet, you will find it quite informative. My basic diet is based on this with some changes for performance and recovery. I've also gone a step further on some of his ideas.

 

 

Hi Daniel, 

You mention that you've gone a step further on PHD.  I know you modify around workout time, which I do too.  But, Paul Jaminet is also a big proponent of a 16 hr IF each day.  Do you do that, too?  

 

I really like the PHD, but I feel that most people who are getting the best results, are following a frequent feeding schedule every 2-3 hours with Josh's recommendations around workouts and including breakfast.  

 

Are you following PHD's eating window?  Or, are you eating throughout the day? 

No. I talked to Paul about the fasting cycle and he agreed that it would probably not work for my schedule. IF doesn't work well for active people unless you keep your workouts shorter and follow them with the eating period.

Paul Jaminet is a pretty smart guy, although from several conferences listening to him, he clearly has a fundamental misunderstanding of carrier mediated autophagy related to IF and carbohydrate metabolism.  That being said, his retreat sounds pretty awesome.

Damon Amato said:

Paul Jaminet is a pretty smart guy, although from several conferences listening to him, he clearly has a fundamental misunderstanding of carrier mediated autophagy related to IF and carbohydrate metabolism. That being said, his retreat sounds pretty awesome.

Please substantiate claims. You come into every forum and say that there is fundamental misunderstanding without any elaboration.

Damon Amato said:

Paul Jaminet is a pretty smart guy, although from several conferences listening to him, he clearly has a fundamental misunderstanding of carrier mediated autophagy related to IF and carbohydrate metabolism.  That being said, his retreat sounds pretty awesome.

As a caveman--see profile pic--I have no idea what this means:  "has a fundamental misunderstanding of carrier mediated autophoagy related to IF and carbohydrate metabolism."  

 

But, I've heard him say that the primary purpose of a 16 hour daily fast is not autophogy, but rather, circadian rhythm entrainment.  It should promote better sleep and mental clarity.  

 

Paul Jaminet was just on Keifer's podcast discussing his ideas:  http://body.io/body-io-fm-41-dr-paul-jaminet/

Daniel, 

So, do most of your meals then, have a "balanced" approach that Jaminet discusses, although you just happen to eat more of them through the entire day?  Or, do you load most of your carbs and "safe starches" around workout time?  

bombadil said:

Daniel,

So, do most of your meals then, have a "balanced" approach that Jaminet discusses, although you just happen to eat more of them through the entire day? Or, do you load most of your carbs and "safe starches" around workout time?

Depends completely on activity. For instance some days I bike for my commute which tends to be short bursts of activity because I live in the city. On these days I will have more starches in my meals. Other days I have to drive and eat relatively fewer carbs and save them for the workout period.

Another thing I altered is I don't eat starch much at breakfast anymore. I typically go for a fibrous fruit or berry.

I eat 4 meals on workout days plus my workout nutrition. On other days I may eat as few as two meals; usually lunch and dinner.

Daniel Burnham said:

Please substantiate claims. You come into every forum and say that there is fundamental misunderstanding without any elaboration.

That's because Coach Sommer was right, a lot of things in this forum are fundamentally misunderstood.  Paul specifically doesn't understand that resetting circadian rhythm has a lot more to do with keeping insulin low in the morning and allowing cortisol to provide proper benefit, rather than not ingesting any food for 16 hours a day.  You can create the exact same metabolic environment he's talking about with a simple fat load.  I tried to nicely point out to him that his "perfect diet" is almost exactly the same as the one labeled "paleo" in a comparison study to the AHA guidelines where exactly zero difference was found with controlling blood sugar, body composition, and a few other less relevant markers.  It either went over his head or he didn't want to talk about it.  That made him even less inclined to defend his "30% carb" portion of the diet and that's where he really loses credibility.  I see him as someone who was able to manipulate poorly controlled studies to skew a paradigm just enough to get attention, which is sad because I think at a base level he's a pretty bright guy.

Daniel Burnham said:

Completely disagree. Carbs pre workout causes night and day difference for me. Without them I get tired about 30 min in and performance suffers. With a intra or preworkout source I feel good for several hours.

 

 

Damon Amato said:

It's not really a matter of agreeing or disagreeing.  Facts are facts.  There are a sub group of the population with more copies of the salivary amylase gene and can tolerate high doses of carbs and metabolize them quicker, however I am not speaking in the context of your specific regimen and anecdotal N = 1 evidence, I'm talking about the majority of the population.

 

 

Doesn't the body have a direct pathway for using glucose during exercise?  Meaning that CHO requires next to no processing during exercise and drinking glucose during the workout, or having starch in the stomach from a pre workout meal would mean the glucose is used directly by skeletal muscle, bypassing storage as glycogen first.

 

This wasn't the source I remember but it touches on it here (full abstract at the bottom):

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19391163

 

"skeletal muscle glucose uptake is normal during exercise in those who suffer from insulin resistance and diabetes. Thus, the pathway of contraction-mediated glucose uptake into skeletal muscle provides an attractive potential target for pharmaceutical treatment and prevention of such conditions, especially as skeletal muscle is the major site of impaired glucose disposal in insulin resistance."

 

Due to this independent pathway during exercise, higher carbohydrate can be tolerated even by individuals with low carbohydrate tolerance no?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Skeletal muscle glucose uptake during exercise: a focus on reactive oxygen species and nitric oxide signaling.