Biosignature test

-MR said:

Alex, have you really researched the supplements recommended by BioSignature and found evidence for their stated effectiveness? If so, can you please give us some examples? I'd love to do my own research, but don't actually know what they recommend and for what conditions they recommend them.

I can't get into specific protocols but I've put people on them and even worked with a couple of my own. Results included severe reduction of my own mothers RA symptoms, reduction of my wife's seasonal allergies, and some people even having their doctors pull them off their medication which was pretty awesome. Do you mean studies? The great thing about them is the studies are listed in almost every article! Just pull it up and start reading.

thecolin said:

So you advice is a to go get a $400 book? 

 

 

If you want to have an opinion on it while actually knowing the facts, yes. If not, that's okay too. I'd love to see any results you might have of you and your athletes. The earlier listed response has examples of results that occured from a gut protocol.

Mats Trane said:

Thanks for your opinions everone! I decided to do the test, I might waste some money but I´m willing to take the risk. My goal with this is to optimize my meals and to find out what foods my body reacts to in a negative way.

I´ll try to share my experinces in this thread.

I was there the a few days ago. Did the bloodtests and the guy measured me in 12 spots. I also took notes of what i was eating for 3 days. I will now meet him for consulting and new measurements 10 mondays ahead. Got the reults from the measurements back yesterday and they were as follows:

 

IMG_6156.JPG

 

 

He aslo went through my notes of the meals and the first thing he wanted me to try to change was my breakfast. Up till  know I´ve been eating Natural yoghurt with buckweat and a fresh fruit. He gave me a list of 10 different breakfasts. The biggest change was basically more protein. It will take another week to get the results of the blood tests as they send them off to Germany.

This looks great Mats! Not too bad body fat percentage either! I imagine your coach might have you try EstroClear for Men to lower the hamstring site (and thus remove excess estrogen), which is something that worked fantastically for me. The umbilical site is tricky, as it's related more to cortisol, which can be affected by so many other things. Good luck, and keep us updated!

Alex Chubb said:

 

If you want to have an opinion on it while actually knowing the facts, yes. If not, that's okay too.

 

Getting more information on this system and how it supposedly works is exactly what I've been looking for. You're apparently content calling me ignorant while avoiding answering my clear questions.

While this thread doesn't actually provide any clear information, I think for anyone thinking critically, it's quite illuminating. While it's unfair to assume you're representative of the entire system, at this point the only conclusion I can come to is that you're selling snake oil (though perhaps in modern times that should be revised to fish oil salesman  ).

Looking at some of the products (http://main.poliquinstore.com/estroclear-for-men lower your estrogen with decaffeinated green tea!), it's evident that debating this subject further is akin to debating the predictive powers of astrology.

It really is a shame that Chigiskob's original post was removed. Although it was a little aggressive, he was right to say the burden of proof regarding the effectiveness of the supplements falls on the BioSIgnature proponents. Nobody seems willing to provide any evidence other than anecdotes however, because it doesn't actually exist:

The list of references that were provided were general studies regarding the hormonal changes that occur with changes in body composition etc... None of them actually addressed the effectiveness of supplementation on correcting hormonal deficiencies and improving body composition. 

The book Atlas of Endocrinology that was also mentioned as evidence was written by an "anti-aging" physician (Thierry Hertoghe) which makes its legitimacy highly suspect. For more information regarding the controversies surrounding "anti-aging" medicine, you can start with wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Academy_of_Anti-Aging_Medicine

Chigiskob was also right to point out that that the fancier and more formal the clinical assessment is (detailed medical history gathering, physical exam, caliper measures, blood tests, etc..), the more it lends credence to the unfounded and expensive supplement recommendations that are recommended by BioSignature practiioners because "hey, they really did a thorough and scientific assessment so they must know what they're talking about".

One question people should ask themselves is if you're going to measure your hormone levels, why not have them assessed by a trained endocrinologist rather than some guy who did a week-long course?

In the end, people are free to do what they want with their money, they should just be aware of what they're getting into. Based on his previous posts, I respect Mats a lot, think he's entering this process with a healthy dose of skepticism, and am happy that he's sharing his experience with us so that we can get a peek at the process.

thecolin said:

Getting more information on this system and how it supposedly works is exactly what I've been looking for. You're apparently content calling me ignorant while avoiding answering my clear questions.

 

While this thread doesn't actually provide any clear information, I think for anyone thinking critically, it's quite illuminating. While it's unfair to assume you're representative of the entire system, at this point the only conclusion I can come to is that you're selling snake oil (though perhaps in modern times that should be revised to fish oil salesman  ).

 

Looking at some of the products (http://main.poliquinstore.com/estroclear-for-men lower your estrogen with decaffeinated green tea!), it's evident that debating this subject further is akin to debating the predictive powers of astrology.

Your answers are in my previous post. But you may choose to ignore them as you have done. As I said, when you have results to show for your knowledge, I'll be happy to see. Until then.

-MR said:

It really is a shame that Chigiskob's original post was removed. Although it was a little aggressive, he was right to say the burden of proof regarding the effectiveness of the supplements falls on the BioSIgnature proponents. Nobody seems willing to provide any evidence other than anecdotes however, because it doesn't actually exist:

 

The list references that were provided were general studies regarding the hormonal changes that occur with changes in body composition etc... None of them actually addressed the effectiveness of supplementation on correcting hormonal deficiencies and improving body composition. 

 

The book Atlas of Endocrinology that was also mentioned as evidence was written by an "anti-aging" physician (Thierry Hertoghe) which makes its legitimacy highly suspect. For more information regarding the controversies regarding "anti-aging" medicine, you can start with wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Academy_of_Anti-Aging_Medicine

 

Chigiskob was also right to point out that that the fancier and more formal the clinical assessment is (detailed medical history gathering, physical exam, caliper measures, blood tests, etc..), the more it lends credence to the unfounded and expensive supplement recommendations that are recommended by BioSignature practiioners because "hey, they really did a thorough and scientific assessment so they must know what they're talking about".

 

One question people should ask themselves is if you're going to measure your hormone levels, why not have them assessed by a trained endocrinologist rather than some guy who did a week-long course?

 

In the end, people are free to do what they want with their money, they should just be aware of what they're getting into. Based on his previous posts, I respect Mats a lot, think he's entering this process with a healthy dose of skepticism, and am happy that he's sharing his experience with us so that we can get a peek at the process.

Biosig isn't invasive or time consuming but as I said, blood testing is something that is highly advised when possible. You guys are welcome to wait for perfect double blind studies though, if that's what you mean. You'll be waiting a while for the perfect study, though.

Mats Trane said:

Thanks for your opinions everone! I decided to do the test, I might waste some money but I´m willing to take the risk. My goal with this is to optimize my meals and to find out what foods my body reacts to in a negative way.

I´ll try to share my experinces in this thread.

I was there the a few days ago. Did the bloodtests and the guy measured me in 12 spots. I also took notes of what i was eating for 3 days. I will now meet him for consulting and new measurements 10 mondays ahead. Got the reults from the measurements back yesterday and they were as follows:

 

IMG_6156.JPG

 

 

He aslo went through my notes of the meals and the first thing he wanted me to try to change was my breakfast. Up till  know I´ve been eating Natural yoghurt with buckweat and a fresh fruit. He gave me a list of 10 different breakfasts. The biggest change was basically more protein. It will take another week to get the results of the blood tests as they send them off to Germany.

I'm excited to see how the change to breakfast improves things and if the cortisol marker drops. I test everyone who comes in on their carb tolerance now. Most report better energy levels and focus after that breakfast.

Alex Chubb said:

Most report better energy levels and focus after that breakfast.

How is this measured?

Ravn said:

How is this measured?

I give them two different breakfast and have them record and rate afterward. Some of them can eat cereal, pancakes, and syrup and be fine. Others fall asleep after and we switch it to a more protein based one. Usually, one produces a difference.

-MR said:

It really is a shame that Chigiskob's original post was removed. Although it was a little aggressive, he was right to say the burden of proof regarding the effectiveness of the supplements falls on the BioSIgnature proponents. Nobody seems willing to provide any evidence other than anecdotes however, because it doesn't actually exist:

 

 

While I agree that Chigiskob did indeed have a very good point, the moderators ultimately decided to delete the post for being overly aggressive.   This is not something that they do lightly.  His continued behavior after that point contributed to the situation as well, as I discovered after getting ready myself to send him a short note reminding him to keep it down to a dull roar.  

This forum is, has always been and will continue to be moderated.  I would like to remind everyone that I consider this forum an extension of my home and as such expect my guests to behave appropriately.  

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Alex Chubb said:

 

 

You guys are welcome to wait for perfect double blind studies though, if that's what you mean. You'll be waiting a while for the perfect study, though.

While I'm trying to extricate myself from this conversation (badly, it would seem  ). I feel the need to comment on the implication that the argument has somehow been put forth that I need a double blind study done to tell me if I should get out of bed in the morning.

There's absolutely a place for pure experimentation based on experience and instinct. I've helped people with that approach, without relying on a perfect study to back me up.

But when it comes to marketing pills that claim to have a specific effect, strict proof should be an absolute, legal requirement. Supplements exist in a grey area that allows them to market themselves as medicine with none of the requirements to back up the claims. If you want to state that your green tea extract is going to balance someone's hormones, it should be backed by a rigorous study that reasonably demonstrate the results it claims to provide over the effects of a placebo.

thecolin said:

While I'm trying to extricate myself from this conversation (badly, it would seem  ). I feel the need to comment on the implication that the argument has somehow been put forth that I need a double blind study done to tell me if I should get out of bed in the morning.

 

There's absolutely a place for pure experimentation based on experience and instinct. I've helped people with that approach, without relying on a perfect study to back me up.

 

But when it comes to marketing pills that claim to have a specific effect, strict proof should be an absolute, legal requirement. Supplements exist in a grey area that allows them to market themselves as medicine with none of the requirements to back up the claims. If you want to state that your green tea extract is going to balance someone's hormones, it should be backed by a rigorous study that reasonably demonstrate the results it claims to provide over the effects of a placebo.

That would be nice. I'd love that more than you can imagine but science moves slow. By the time you have that perfect study, some of us won't be around anymore. I'd rather take the experience of high level coaches like Charles now rather than wait. And since I have, it's worked. But I'll agree to disagree with you as well so we can lower our cortisol.

Alex Chubb said:

But I'll agree to disagree with you as well so we can lower our cortisol.

I think that's the best we're going to get at this point. 

Related, but not directly: great article on recovery and lifestyle (no mention of supplements) from the Poliquin Group, probably relevant to a lot of us on here:

More directly related: here is an article on supplements from the Poliquin Group, filled with a list of references at the bottom.

Thanks again Coach for letting us nit-pick at each other on the forums. Apparently we are all so passionate about what we do that sometimes it comes across as bickering. Sincere apologies! Thanks again for the hospitality.

Best,

Chris

Hi guys...I'm the head instructor for Biosig and I can answer any questions you guys may have about what Biosig is and isn't.  It isn't the same system as when Charles was teaching it.  I've radically changed it.  Let me know what questions you have

LukeLeaman said:

Hi guys...I'm the head instructor for Biosig and I can answer any questions you guys may have about what Biosig is and isn't.  It isn't the same system as when Charles was teaching it.  I've radically changed it.  Let me know what questions you have

Sure, what did you change from the old program and why?

And how do you feel about the supplement industry being largely unregulated yet still allowed to make medical claims without any burden of proof?

Some of the medical claims of these products are just scandalous. Reminds me of a protein powder "Sun Warrior Pro", a vegan protein powder that some years ago had the audacity to put on the product that it has a 98.2% digestion efficiency - "more easily digestible than a mothers milk"............(they have in recent years removed this statement)

I was just gobsmacked.  For a brief second I thought I had found the holy grail of muscle building.  Then after the emotion has settled I realised just what a load of bullsh*t they were spouting.

Biosignature....sensible healthy eating yes.  But the sports supplement/training industry is all about money and the natural (fake) bodybuilders looks are what sell them.  Poliquin 'seems' to have been involved in some very shady activities himself, I trust the man as far as I can throw him. Do a search on 'Charles Poliquin David Boston'  Apparently he added 32lbs of LEAN MUSCLE to this NFL player's frame in one off season, even after adding all that mass his sprint speed (40 yard dash?) remained the same......and get this........it was all natural............(LMAO!!!) no way in hell!!

Now don't get me wrong, I think the guy knows a lot about strength training and I enjoy reading his training articles - he has a great sense of humour.  But what's his real motive $$$$$  ??

Apparently Poliquin and these guys parted ways, so he's not involved with the Poliquin Group anymore, despite it carrying his name.

Oh man, this thread is heating up again. Let it rip, gentlemen.

thecolin said:

Sure, what did you change from the old program and why?

 

And how do you feel about the supplement industry being largely unregulated yet still allowed to make medical claims without any burden of proof?

The industry is not allowed to make medical claims.  If they are, they are breaking the law.  Myself and my lecture partner, Larry Veteto are quite clear about this in class.  We are not here to "treat" anything.

DonGray said:

Some of the medical claims of these products are just scandalous. Reminds me of a protein powder "Sun Warrior Pro", a vegan protein powder that some years ago had the audacity to put on the product that it has a 98.2% digestion efficiency - "more easily digestible than a mothers milk"............(they have in recent years removed this statement)

 

I was just gobsmacked.  For a brief second I thought I had found the holy grail of muscle building.  Then after the emotion has settled I realised just what a load of bullsh*t they were spouting.

 

Biosignature....sensible healthy eating yes.  But the sports supplement/training industry is all about money and the natural (fake) bodybuilders looks are what sell them.  Poliquin 'seems' to have been involved in some very shady activities himself, I trust the man as far as I can throw him. Do a search on 'Charles Poliquin David Boston'  Apparently he added 32lbs of LEAN MUSCLE to this NFL player's frame in one off season, even after adding all that mass his sprint speed (40 yard dash?) remained the same......and get this........it was all natural............(LMAO!!!) no way in hell!!

 

Now don't get me wrong, I think the guy knows a lot about strength training and I enjoy reading his training articles - he has a great sense of humour.  But what's his real motive $$$$$  ??

Charles is no longer with the company and hasn't been for almost 2 years.  

thecolin said:

Apparently Poliquin and these guys parted ways, so he's not involved with the Poliquin Group anymore, despite it carrying his name.

Yes, we decided to keep the name for now on advice from our marketing agency.  It's not permanent.  It was shock enough to our coaches when we parted ways.

thecolin said:

Sure, what did you change from the old program and why?

We took out the voodoo crap and only teach things backed by studies.  The only thing that remains is the sites and what they correlate to.  We now teach quite a bit of physiology and metabolic pathways, inflammatory pathways, and how to help correct them as much as a trainer can with nutrition, lifestyle, and supplementation.  We have backing by Dr. James LaValle of the LaValle Metabolic Institute.   

We now basically teach people how to unclog stagnant metabolisms (in a matter of speaking), and how to drive fat loss and anabolic pathways.

I can't wait for the name to change so we can be done with it.  It leaves a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths, I realize this.  

What's funny is that most of the people that criticize what we're doing are going with some of the ridiculous things that have come out of Charles' mouth and have never actually taken any of our courses.  If you're getting secondhand knowledge without actually sitting in on the course, then you really don't know what it's about

What is this biosig?

LukeLeaman said:

The industry is not allowed to make medical claims.  If they are, they are breaking the law.  Myself and my lecture partner, Larry Veteto are quite clear about this in class.  We are not here to "treat" anything.

So you skirt the law at the very edge, so instead of claiming on the bottle that it will help with something, you say it may help with something. Then you throw the full weight of your marketing behind it to claim the benefits, and rely on people's hopes and anxiety to make the sale. As long as you don't write it on the bottle the FDA can't come after you.

Here's an article that talks all about the supposed benefits of zinc, including numerous mentions of cancer prevention.

http://www.poliquingroup.com/articlesmultimedia/articles/article/812/top_ten_benefits_of_zinc.aspx 

The bottom of the article links directly to your product, where there are no such claims. If you actually claimed directly on the product that it prevented cancer, you would be sanctioned and fined. But this way everything is nice and legal.

It's far easier to spend money on marketing. Otherwise the supplement industry would spend more time doing real research and less time lobbying to deregulate the industry. (there was over $4,000,000 in lobbying from the supplement industry last year, with more money spent each year).

I just read through this thread... Mats Trane, you have not posted any update about your personal experience with the thing. I for one would be very interested in reading your first hand experience. Would you care to share?