Ideal weights for Jefferson curls, over grip dislocates before moving on

He guys,

I remember coach mentioned to keep increasing the weight of Jefferson curls and Standing over grip shoulder dislocates (HS/PE5). My question is what weight I should reach before moving on to the next element. I completed whole 3 moths cycles with 5kg for Jefferson curls and 2.5kg for the over grip dislocates. Right now I am working on the standing weighted pike hang MN/PE4 with 22.5kg. I am thinking about whether to move on to the under grip dislocates or to increase the weight of the over grip ones. 

best regards

Felix

The mastery standard to move on to the next element is typically 2.5 kg / 5 lbs with full range of motion.  This shows you have the proper mobility to safely move on to the next element.

Then keep JC's and dislocates in your warmup, gradually increasing the weight.  I believe this is what coach was referring to.

As an aside...if you're doing 22.5kg for PE4>iM, I'm surprised you're only at 5kg for JC's.

Don't increase the amount of weight you use for the shoulder dislocates until the distance between yours hands gets to just outside of shoulder width. When you do add more weight go back out wide and slowly work your hands back in to just outside shoulder width.

Keep Jefferson Curls in your warm-ups. You ideally want to be able to curl your bodyweight.

20kg is the standard for JC mastery it would seem:

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/13903-jefferson-curl-injury/#entry136245

I would really like to hear more on this. When to increase weight is my biggest issue!?

I'm doing 20 kg Jefferson Curls however I'm missing around 5 cm before my wrists are at feets. Though I have not full ROM yet but I'm close. However I do not find 20 kg heavy at all. Should I increase before full ROM or only when full ROM are mastered?

I think it's ROM first then increase weight.

For most iMs it's ROM before weight.  But I feel like this one (JC) really benefits from a little extra weight off the bat to open up the ROM.  Just a couple kg extra can transform this from "nothing" to a very nice stretch.  

I retract my comment based on more knowledgeable responses below.

I'm about 145 lbs and today I did about 50 lbs jefferson curls, and it was really easy for me.  

In the next couple of days, I'll be gradually increasing this to the 70-80 lbs range, which is the recommended minimum by Coach.

Jacob Morsbøl said:

I would really like to hear more on this. When to increase weight is my biggest issue!?

 

I'm doing 20 kg Jefferson Curls however I'm missing around 5 cm before my wrists are at feets. Though I have not full ROM yet but I'm close. However I do not find 20 kg heavy at all. Should I increase before full ROM or only when full ROM are mastered?

Once again, Jefferson Curls, as Coach Sommer has us do them, is more about strengthening the muscles in between the individual vertebra rather than increasing range of motion. For this particular element increase weight once every twelve weeks. The increase of range of motion is a secondary benefit for this particular element.

If the purpose for a given element, like the weighted pike hang, was to increase range of motion you shouldn't need to add more weight. The longer an individual continues to hold an object the heavier the object, seemingly, becomes.  With the same amount of weight, the human body gradually relaxes more and gains small amounts of additional range of motion over a span of time.  Adding more weight for the sake of "Speeding" up the process doesn't mean you get to the goal faster. However it does make it easier to injure yourself. As you learn how to relax your body more the weight of your torso will become additional weight. The average human head weighs about 8lb(3.63kg) and most our body weight is in our torso.

Where overall flexibility is concerned "Cold" flexibility is better than "Warm" flexibility. It takes time and patience to gain "Cold" flexibility. 

It is absolutely ROM before weight. That is central to all our mobility work

That said there are times when a controlled increase in weight can help you get that extra ROM, like the difference between broomstick and lightly weighted dislocates. This is not to be messed around with, especially if you are relatively new to gst and or you are strong and playing with some bigger weights.

Preferable is exceptional ROM with conservative, long term increases. That's where the real magic is

As I progress I'm keeping the mastered elements (strength + im) in my warmup, usually one mastery set. The goal is to increase weight or ROM, depending on the exercise every 10/12 weeks.

After listening to the latest Robb Wolf podcast (ep 241) I'm starting to question whether 1 single set is enough to properly condition the connective tissue (CT). In the interview Coach mentions that high volume is necessary to affect and remodel the CT.

Now my question is, what's the most efficient way to approach this problem?

How many sets/reps should we perform to benefit from the exercises?

Of course this doesn't apply to J.C. only but also to the knee series (the ims for SLS) and I guess is the same for dislocates and all the ims you want to keep training.

I just don't want to have a 30 min WU.

In the course it recommends 21/15/9 as a warm up. That could easily be 3 sets of Jefferson as the IM, depending on where you are in the course. I'm still on PE:2 so my warm up is tuck up/windmills but if you were in PE:4 you could do:

21 tuck ups / 5 Jefferson curl

15 straddle up / 5 Jefferson curl

9 v up / 5 Jefferson curl

Murray Truelove said:

In the course it recommends 21/15/9 as a warm up. That could easily be 3 sets of Jefferson as the IM, depending on where you are in the course. I'm still on PE:2 so my warm up is tuck up/windmills but if you were in PE:4 you could do:

21 tuck ups / 5 Jefferson curl

15 straddle up / 5 Jefferson curl

9 v up / 5 Jefferson curl

I see so you'd use the strength exercise from previous elements but only the JC as mobility.

That's a good option.

Thanks

I'm not so sure the exact rep range is necessarily going to be the same for everyone either. In the most recent Rob Wolf podcast Coach mentions that for him personally he needs at least 10 reps of say weighted dislocates before he feels his connective tissues loosen/warm-up and can then start to creep his hands in closer; so I think the main thing to consider would be making sure you allow the connective tissues to warm/loosen up before attempting greater ROM or more Weight in your Warm-ups, not getting hung up on a specific number of reps.

Also, I think it should be a given that if JC's are in your warm-up that you should have already achieved mastery ROM with the minimum required load, so adding additional weight would simply be a matter of:

-adding a conservative amount of load and gradually allowing the connective tissues to elongate/handle said new load at desired ROM. This could potentially happen in a single workout or could take several (depending on the weight increase and subsequent initial necessary decrease in ROM).

-then repeating the process over months until you have achieved the ultimate goal of BW JC's with mastery ROM

Disclaimer: I am not a GB certified athlete or coach, so take this with a grain of salt.

Dam I've probably been doing JCs with like 15lbs lol. Need to get heavier weights

Destiny said:

Dam I've probably been doing JCs with like 15lbs lol. Need to get heavier weights

I'm up to 20kg now but started with even less than 15lbs. I was very conservative when increasing load. Once you get the movement pattern down progress seems to come more quickly.

Keegan said:

I'm not so sure the exact rep range is necessarily going to be the same for everyone either. In the most recent Rob Wolf podcast Coach mentions that for him personally he needs at least 10 reps of say weighted dislocates before he feels his connective tissues loosen/warm-up and can then start to creep his hands in closer; so I think the main thing to consider would be making sure you allow the connective tissues to warm/loosen up before attempting greater ROM or more Weight in your Warm-ups, not getting hung up on a specific number of reps.

Also, I think it should be a given that if JC's are in your warm-up that you should have already achieved mastery ROM with the minimum required load, so adding additional weight would simply be a matter of:

-adding a conservative amount of load and gradually allowing the connective tissues to elongate/handle said new load at desired ROM. This could potentially happen in a single workout or could take several (depending on the weight increase and subsequent initial necessary decrease in ROM).

-then repeating the process over months until you have achieved the ultimate goal of BW JC's with mastery ROM

Disclaimer: I am not a GB certified athlete or coach, so take this with a grain of salt.

Thanks Keegan.

Of course you need to have mastered it in order to have it in the warm up.

I'll proceed with 1 set of 10 every time I workout (that suggestion is from Coach). Of course in case I feel like I need more reps I'll add them.

Respecting adaptation time is very important and because is the connective tissue I'm training I'll bump up the weights every 10/12 weeks. This is what Coach suggested us in the Cornwall Seminar.

I started with 45lb and now I'm at 60 but in a couple of weeks I'll bump up, will probably try 80 and see how it feels.