CF Integration

Hi all, I just started F1 + H1 (at week 1) - it's great! 

I have read a lot of stuff on the forum! It's awesome to have so much insight right there before you - for example, I noticed I had a very limited ROM on Swivel Hips - and some of the posts have already helped remedy this (to the extent that I can see progress already).

I have a question on integration though - when is it okay to integrate CF-like lifting? (squats, fr squat, dlift + clean & jerk, snatch). I want to keep GST at the centre of my training for body control, so the lifts come second, but ultimately my goal is to be able to do RX in CF WODs. I don't need to exceed this, as I don't want to compromise my GST training. 

I read somewhere Coach saying something along the lines of "after F2", but I was wondering if power lifts differed from the olympic lifts, if after F2 is the ideal time and if any one of you has some insight in how to go about this kind of integration. I know this is pretty hypothetical as I'll be on Foundation-only for quite some time, but I really appreciate the theoretical aspect of training!

Don't know about bench press, but for the rest of them, "after F2" pretty much means you shouldn't really squat/deadlift until you master the SLS and the associated iMs. Having other mobility deficits fixed thanks to other progressions doesn't hurt, hence Coach's recommendation.

I guess other people could give you a more accurate answer detailing which progression you should reach for each element. However, I think if you're not doing crossfit right now and it isn't a priority goal, you should just finish Foundation and then get to it. If there's a goal behind starting crossfit and being able to the RX WODs, then it's another story. 

Coach says that you should not 'put weight on your back' before you have mastered the single leg squat (Pistol squat in the world of CF).

I find it somehow intuitive. If you can't do an exercise to the full extend without resistance you should not add resistance. The single leg squat is (in some sense) the fully extended of squat without resistance. Thus, if you can't do a single leg squat, you can't do the squat to the full extend without resistance and therefore you should not add resistance.

When that is said cossack squat and twisting squat is superior in developing leg strength and mobility. I cannot say whether this is the case for later SLS/PE's but I surely don't miss weighted squats.

Bro said:

Don't know about bench press, but for the rest of them, "after F2" pretty much means you shouldn't really squat/deadlift until you master the SLS and the associated iMs. Having other mobility deficits fixed thanks to other progressions doesn't hurt, hence Coach's recommendation.

I guess other people could give you a more accurate answer detailing which progression you should reach for each element. However, I think if you're not doing crossfit right now and it isn't a priority goal, you should just finish Foundation and then get to it. If there's a goal behind starting crossfit and being able to the RX WODs, then it's another story. 

It is a goal to me I do value body control higher, but it is still a goal. I don't want to rush Foundation, but the 3-6 years it might realistically take to go through F1-4 is a long time to omit working towards (I know Foundation works towards strength in lifts too!) my other physical performance related goals.

EDIT: I of course also intend to keep on doing GST (Rings) after i finish the H- and F-series

Here is my rough program:

MWF shortly after getting up: F1 (A/B split)

TTh shortly after getting up: H1 

WS: slow, easy run (volume is 3 miles each days for this month, 3/4 next month, 4/4 November, etc, plan to maintain at 5/5)

M: 5/3/1 strict press (press/shoulder press/overhead press), 3 light sets of front squat (to practice the rack and an upright torso and give a little assistance work)

T: light posterior chain assistance work with no danger of missing a rep or failing to complete a set

Th: posterior chain/pull assistance work, similar loading as T

F: 5/3/1 back squat, light assistance work on either front squat or good mornings

I also boulder (indoors) and hike periodically though not for workout purposes, just because that's what I like to do! I've just started supplementing the mobility work in F1/H1 because I've realized I'll never progress in mobility with only a warm-up and the iMs...too immobile. My total "workout" time is probably around 6-7 hours/week. 30 min (on average) for H1/F1, 30 min for run or lifting session. I've deliberately chosen a lower-recovery version of F1 (and lower-volume lifting) so that I can work on other physical goals. 

I've been at F1/H1 since the first week of August. I've seen progress in my handstand (better body line, can hold the top for a few seconds now instead of falling over), mastered FL/PE1 and MN/PE1, and am generally progressing otherwise. I did that for a month, and am now bringing the lifting back in. Too soon to check for progress in lifting, but will let everyone know how it all works out.

Why I'm diverging with some recommendations: I'm not all that strong with weights, but I've had to work hard even to get where I am. My leg strength will atrophy only working SLS PEs, and I let that happen once before (atrophy, not SLS-only work). My body felt horrible and I couldn't do things (like) hike that I loved doing. If staying stronger in the short run means that it takes me longer to get strong in the long run, I'll accept that. I'm also aware that my lack of ankle mobility means that I take a risk when I put the bar on my back. For me, I'm conscious of the risk. If I were a relative novice at fitness, I wouldn't do any of this: I would just do F1/H1 and maybe jog a bit. But since I have some strength to lose and I use that strength fairly regularly, it's worth it to me to take a little bit of risk and to be less aggressive with my H1/F1. Happy to answer any questions about what I'm doing (or more specific goals), personally, but obviously I'm diverging from the program so that may not be a good idea for anyone else. 

Thanks for answer!

Well this is kinda what I'm wondering! If integration from the get-go is possible (slowly building both areas) - or if it is necessary, or at least more efficient, to just go all-out Foundation and then try some integration afterwards (GST + olympic lifts on 5/3/1 e.g.).

I think the latter probably is the safest way - given you increase your mobility and strengthen tendons/ligaments etc.

But it is tempting to just split it right away! And I don't even have the excuse that I need strength from lifting.

It sounds like the latter is probably the best bet for you. 

Something else you might think about: practicing weightlifting with an unloaded bar. Really focus on solid position, solid catch in the rack, good hips, etc. Hammer in healthy movements. Film yourself, critique, get critiques, etc. If you do F1/H1 right now and then just do some weightlifting practice, you should have excellent form once you actually start training the snatch and C+J, but you won't be beating your body up or getting in the way of GST progress in the meantime. Focusing on technical work after the main GST workout shouldn't be a problem (since Coach has said it's fine to do some playing around with handstands after finishing F1/H1 for the day). This will give you a compromise -- not totally abandoning lifting for the next however many months or years -- but will still put the main effort where it will give you major returns with GST.

As far as temptation goes, agreed: it took a lot of time for me to accept that glacial progress was better than constantly trying to do a million things at once and failing at all of them. It's hard not to want to kick ass at Cindy and Fran, and also at weightlifting total, and also at GST. 

That is one heck of a good idea! I think I'll do that

Exactly. Seems I'll have to swallow my pride and grind through, heh.

Thanks for the insight!

Well, if you already do CF then I would say do not stop. Keep working on your lifts you will be fine. Just do not follow general trend of heavier weight and setting PR by any means necessary so popular in many boxes. Keep very strict technique and be conservative in adding weight if you really want to make sure that you are not setting yourself up for future injury by exercising with lack of mobility or strength in certain areas. For example every powerlifter will tell you that it takes many months to learn how to squat properly and mobility and strength is only part of it. Learning how to engage proper muscles, timing you can only learn by doing actual barbell squat.

O.lifts are even much more technical and will take years to master. So if you stay conservative, and only accept perfect reps chances are very small that you will hurt yourself.

You might want to experiment to see what schedule works for you better. I find that combination of something like 2 GB 1 lift 1 metcon per workput was working just fine. Today I like to separate my GB and CF days, it is just mentally easier. So I alternate 1 day 4 GB exercises following by 1 day of lift plus metcon. If lifts are priority I would switch the order as there is really no point in lifting heavy when you are tired.

How many times a week probably would depend in intensity of your metcons and lifts. I have been doing CF for 8 years and can easily feel if I need to back off. I lift relatively heavy (squat and DL in the range of 2-3 BW) so I typically do not do more than 2 slow and 2 o.lifts per week plus 2-3 metcons (no hero WODs, these do not add anything for your fitness except sometimes being fun challenge). I also find that I almost never have to reduce GB training and can stay away from overtraining by taking extra day off from CF. Keep listening to your body. In any case it will be a compromise between GB and CF even though I believe that GB greatly complements CF training but not other way around. CF will take away from your GB progress. But I do not want to give up either and for now at least do not feel like I have to.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for the awesome reply. It's nice to have several different angles