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Started by u2ezi, September 14, 2014 · 42 Replies · 33,205 Views
Krel said:Don't do victorian training, it will lead to injuries. Keep in mind that victorian and high manna are skills which can only be performed by something like one in a billion.
so funny, maybe this quote will answer on your ride:
"Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go"
There is a reason why only few people in the world are able to perform victorian with proper form. These people have spent years - not to say their life - developping gymnastic strenght in the most precise and progressive way you can ever find. That is why "pound for pound, a world class athlete on the rings is quite simply the strongest athlete over the widest range of motion walking the planet."
GST involves long-term work, not rush-term work. No brain no gain.
u2ezi said:so funny, maybe this quote will answer on your ride:
"Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go"
That is clsoe to the most ignorant thing I have read for a while. You are acting disrespectfully to people giving you honest and good advice. Some of these people may actually have the attained victorian, while you do not have. Those people have learned the victorian through the GST method which have been under development for many decades.
It is fine if you cannot grasp the complexity of strength training, but please, at least be humble when you come to this forum as a guest. Your credentials and achievements are nothing compared to the progress of some associated members of this forum.
Not sure how that is disrespectfull tbh. Just a different opinion.
In the end it's his decision if he wants to work on a victorian or not.
I couldn't give a crap if he gets injured or not. It won't slow my training, that's for sure.
By all means, work the exercises stated in this forum. Would be pleased to know how it's going.
Freshpro said:That is clsoe to the most ignorant thing I have read for a while. You are acting disrespectfully to people giving you honest and good advice. Some of these people may actually have the attained victorian, while you do not have. Those people have learned the victorian through the GST method which have been under development for many decades.
You see disrespect in my words: "Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go" so you should patent new meaning of "disrespect". On the other hand better doing than speaking. If you are that specialist in gymnastic then show me your victorian, after it I will take your critics to my mind.
Freshpro said:It is fine if you cannot grasp the complexity of strength training, but please, at least be humble when you come to this forum as a guest. Your credentials and achievements are nothing compared to the progress of some associated members of this forum.
You needn't tell me that. I didn't say that I'm better from somebody( It would be nonsens to ask in that case), but you'd rather assail...
This topic is heading in bad way so can be close. I expect sth more valuable from best gymnastics forum than demotivate me.
u2ezi said:You see disrespect in my words: "Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go" so you should patent new meaning of "disrespect". On the other hand better doing than speaking. If you are that specialist in gymnastic then show me your victorian, after it I will take your critics to my mind.
You needn't tell me that. I didn't say that I'm better from somebody( It would be nonsens to ask in that case), but you'd rather assail...
This topic is heading in bad way so can be close. I expect sth more valuable from best gymnastics forum than demotivate me.
We are giving you the best advice possible. You do not intend to follow it because you do not like it. The thread should have ended the moment this became apparent.
The greatest mistake that beginners make is to assume that strength progression is linear and that connective tissue is not to worry about. Now, there is a reason that gymnasts almost never develop tendonitis or any similar type of injury... and that gymnasts remain to be the strongest athletes in the world. The victorian is by the way a gymnastic skill developed with Gymnastic Strength Training™ which is the approach that we use on this forum. If you do not like the idea of GST ask yourself what you are doing on the "best gymnastics forum".
I suspect that the advice being given in this thread represents the community as a whole. We do not intend to put you down, we want to make sure that you have what it requires to start working on the victorian by our standards. And you do not.
I will just leave it there and hope that you will listen to our advice. If not, fine, we will still be here if you happen to change your mind about us.
Krel said:There is a reason why only few people in the world are able to perform victorian with proper form.
No one can do a victorian with proper form yet. The two best people who perform victorian on the rings are Danny Rodrigues and Ali Zahran and they both have to bend their arms and get deductions.
B1214N said:No one can do a victorian with proper form yet. The two best people who perform victorian on the rings are Danny Rodrigues and Ali Zahran and they both have to bend their arms and get deductions.
They are the only two that really compete it. There are more that have victorians and can do them correctly during a short bout in the gym. It just isn't worth it for them to try it in competition. But yes with a cool entry the skill is worth so much that it can be worth it to just bend the elbows and take the deduction if that is what you would rather do.
No one here that I am aware of has learned the victorian though I am sure that coach's experience has made him familiar with the strength it requires. At the seminar we were taken through some very simple victorian elements for the purpose of building balancing strength rather than actually performing the victorian. All I can say for sure is that the progressions listed so far have gaping holes in them, and would only be suitable for those who have trained as gymnasts and are gifted to be able to progress quickly.
I would think that victorian training can be started around the same time as maltese but due to the immense strength required would finish much later. Progressions are also very similar to the maltese requiring the prereqs listed in the rings curriculum. I also think manna should be made a priority for the tricep strength and shoulder stabilization.
I do have a question for coach though. I have performed victorian only on a ring machine with half bodyweight and I feel it much more in the shoulders than the elbows. I realize the ring machine is not really indicative of the full movement, but does victorian require the same elbow prep as maltese and inverted cross?
Daniel Burnham said:They are the only two that really compete it. There are more that have victorians and can do them correctly during a short bout in the gym. It just isn't worth it for them to try it in competition. But yes with a cool entry the skill is worth so much that it can be worth it to just bend the elbows and take the deduction if that is what you would rather do.
No one here that I am aware of has learned the victorian though I am sure that coach's experience has made him familiar with the strength it requires. At the seminar we were taken through some very simple victorian elements for the purpose of building balancing strength rather than actually performing the victorian. All I can say for sure is that the progressions listed so far have gaping holes in them, and would only be suitable for those who have trained as gymnasts and are gifted to be able to progress quickly.
I would think that victorian training can be started around the same time as maltese but due to the immense strength required would finish much later. Progressions are also very similar to the maltese requiring the prereqs listed in the rings curriculum. I also think manna should be made a priority for the tricep strength and shoulder stabilization.
I do have a question for coach though. I have performed victorian only on a ring machine with half bodyweight and I feel it much more in the shoulders than the elbows. I realize the ring machine is not really indicative of the full movement, but does victorian require the same elbow prep as maltese and inverted cross?
Have you personally seen some do it with locked arms and proper form or did you hear it from someone. I'm sure there are more people who can do it, but never competed it.
The victorian stresses more of the outer elbows than the inner elbows in contrast to the maltese so I would imagine it requiring some different elbow prep.
B1214N said:Have you personally seen some do it with locked arms and proper form or did you hear it from someone. I'm sure there are more people who can do it, but never competed it.
The victorian stresses more of the outer elbows than the inner elbows in contrast to the maltese so I would imagine it requiring some different elbow prep.
Have not seen it. A guy in my gym was on Brazil's national team and said there were a few of his teammates that could do it in training but their body line would generally break after a few seconds of holding it with straight arms.
As a fellow street workout athlete I think there is some confusion in this topic. The victorian that street workout athletes learn is similar and different to a gymnasts ring victorian, it is much easier and more achievable. The victorian he is most likely talking about is a "parallel bar victorian" where the arms are straight and placed not as far apart as a rings victorian. The key here is that the entire forearm is in contact with the bar and the lever point is closer to the shoulder, so less force is required. Since you have the FL mastered from a street workout point of view the next thing would be to strengthen the rear delts and triceps in this position, which is close to their shortest contraction. On top of what you're doing I'd reccommend legs apart bent leg v-sit, trying to push your hands back/hips forward and keeping your arms straight. Then holding the "forearm parallel bar victorian" with body in an L shape or with one leg out if that is too easy. Make sure your hips are high (in line with your hands) and you can hold it for atleast 10 seconds before trying a more difficult version.
Hope this helps 
Mitchell Struwig said:As a fellow street workout athlete I think there is some confusion in this topic. The victorian that street workout athletes learn is similar and different to a gymnasts ring victorian, it is much easier and more achievable. The victorian he is most likely talking about is a "parallel bar victorian" where the arms are straight and placed not as far apart as a rings victorian. The key here is that the entire forearm is in contact with the bar and the lever point is closer to the shoulder, so less force is required. Since you have the FL mastered from a street workout point of view the next thing would be to strengthen the rear delts and triceps in this position, which is close to their shortest contraction. On top of what you're doing I'd reccommend legs apart bent leg v-sit, trying to push your hands back/hips forward and keeping your arms straight. Then holding the "forearm parallel bar victorian" with body in an L shape or with one leg out if that is too easy. Make sure your hips are high (in line with your hands) and you can hold it for atleast 10 seconds before trying a more difficult version.
Hope this helps
Do you realize the "forearm supported Victorian cross" is just a progression toward learning Victorian cross on rings? Also, on this forum we tend to emphasize developing our connective tissue so that our skeleton has access to more of our muscular strength. Developing our connective tissue helps make harder strength elements easier.
If gymnasts were like the street workout "Athletes" who put emphasis on just muscular strength there would be a lot of people tearing their bicep tendon while doing a back lever like Adam Raw did.
Just for the sake of information, in the FIG code of points Front and back lever are easy "A" rated skills. The iron cross has a slightly harder "B" rating.
Rayne-William said:Do you realize the "forearm supported Victorian cross" is just a progression toward learning Victorian cross on rings? Also, on this forum we tend to emphasize developing our connective tissue so that our skeleton has access to more of our muscular strength. Developing our connective tissue helps make harder strength elements easier.
If gymnasts were like the street workout "Athletes" who put emphasis on just muscular strength there would be a lot of people tearing their bicep tendon while doing a back lever like Adam Raw did.
Just for the sake of information, in the FIG code of points Front and back lever are easy "A" rated skills. The iron cross has a slightly harder "B" rating.
Underrated post!
Not developing the connective tissue when it is this thoroughly explained is a sign of weakness. When the going gets tough, mentally and or physically, the weaker gets sorted out. I figure people either do not trust the advice being given, do not have the mental strength to follow through with it or value the opinion of friends even more so. I have been there in the exact same position, I changed after a tough mental battle with my ego.
Mitchell Struwig said:As a fellow street workout athlete I think there is some confusion in this topic. The victorian that street workout athletes learn is similar and different to a gymnasts ring victorian, it is much easier and more achievable. The victorian he is most likely talking about is a "parallel bar victorian" where the arms are straight and placed not as far apart as a rings victorian. The key here is that the entire forearm is in contact with the bar and the lever point is closer to the shoulder, so less force is required. Since you have the FL mastered from a street workout point of view the next thing would be to strengthen the rear delts and triceps in this position, which is close to their shortest contraction. On top of what you're doing I'd reccommend legs apart bent leg v-sit, trying to push your hands back/hips forward and keeping your arms straight. Then holding the "forearm parallel bar victorian" with body in an L shape or with one leg out if that is too easy. Make sure your hips are high (in line with your hands) and you can hold it for atleast 10 seconds before trying a more difficult version.
Hope this helps
I am sure this helps other street workout athletes, but not me. I can do: "forearm parallel bar victorian" (but I use other name: forearm front lever) for more than 15 sec.
yes its false grip, but i havent seen anyone doing it this clean. (except danny)
As you said false grip it is showed and in gymnastics false it is not allowed, in fact, rodriguez, tulloch (see the last European championship) and other decided to take off the victorian from the routine due to the great number of deductions. Also, the arm should be positioned so that the angle at the armpit it is 45° on both side, this makes a substantial difference.
Aside these points, this guy it is very strong. Rodriguez it is still much more strong since he can perform 2 victorian cross in the same routine and also a swing to victorian cross which requires him to stop the position after a little fall from the swing.
true, but the main difference is that rodriguez is a proffesional gymnast, and he does it as hobby.
21 hours ago, Bram Koster said:true, but the main difference is that rodriguez is a proffesional gymnast, and he does it as hobby.
I agree, the hold is still very impressive. Especially since he achieved it by himself. A victorian without compensation is probably on the brink of impossible so that guy is world-class strength wise.