Prone Posterior Pelvic Tilt benchmark for mastery( HS im 10)

hey everyone.

been working on bodyline drills as of late and wanted to get a POV on the difference between HS iM 10 from January 14 vs todays and i honestly don't really know what benchmark to use to move on to improve hip mobility now, vs much later.. I can see a difference in glute contraction but not so much the "round" movement of the pelvis when doing Prone Posterior Pelvic Tilt. 

here is the video from January, which upon comparing to my recent video, looks about the same. there is still a lifting of my abs off the ground unlike Dillon does in the video. he remains completely flat against the ground and his spine gets flat around the lumbar area whereas i stay a bit rounded and my butt doesn't "scoop" as much between my legs. it looks more as if I pull my body to the position and not only movement in the pelvis.

I cant load the most recent video right now, i'll include it as soon as i can. 

how can I improve this? do the iM to the point where I can get as "ppt'ed" as possible without lifting off the floor is one thing that came to my mind but when I tried it, i'll be honest that the ROM was so little, it didnt really feel like i could do any work with it.... I'm at the end of my rope here. 

I've been chipping away at my hip flexors and it's been a solid year working on them, rolling, stretching, adding exercises, ommiting exercises, taking it slow on Manna progressions in Foundation to not get any tighter and I honestly...just don't know what to do anymore. how can i move forward? I need help. i don't want it to be another year with the same exercises. I've been stuck in the same road blocks for far too long and i'm tired of it. 

Hello Keilani!  My friend, we need to get your lower back and pelvis moving better.  I see your pelvis tilting posteriorly, but it is not enough to really hollow your low back.  My thoughts are the following:  1) keep drilling Jefferson Curls; 2) Focus on core strength with the MN elements; 3) Really focus on contracting your lower abs when posterior pelvis tilting (is that a word?); squeeze the glutes hard (or work more on glute activation if you can't) to push that extra bit of PPT.  Good luck!

Well, I tried to emulate your position in the mirror and find out your mistakes. I'm sorry no camera here to show you, but I agree with MT that your PPT is simply just not enough. I see you already know your PPT is lacking, and how to scoop the glutes in. Sometimes a new cue will make things click for you, like imagine someone punching you in the stomach or a string pulling your lower back up.

Maybe if all this hip flexor stuff has not been working for so long, some other thing is the problem. It's like a labortatory...experiment with X, Y, Z, see what works better. You'll have to run a thousand more tests until you figure this problem out...

Anways, I know how frustrating it can be to get stuck on something in handstand for such a long time, and we all give the answers you aren't looking for. Some guy knowledgable tells you your hip flexors are tight but the solution just doesn't seem to work for you for some weird reason. This wonderful handbalancer Miguel San'tana once said, "Everyone will be telling you different things about the theory of open shoulders and open hips. Just Keep studying and everything will come clear to you..."

If it makes you feel better, after you conquer this im10, there will be something new to get stuck on the next day

Also, someone will get mad at me for saying this, I know...but you seem pretty annoyed and tired. I would say just step back a few steps, smile, relax about this bodyline business, and then do a few freestanding handstands for fun. And do that for some weeks, just to have some fun for a while. Don't worry about this alignment business. And when you're feeling better about this, come back to that drill. I was once so annoyed I just took two months to screw around with handstands and just enjoy balancing for once and not about alignment.

Something that helped me with my ATP was to practice PPT while standing, trying to tuck my tail as much as possible. What I found is I often need to bend my knees to fully achieve this, then I would straighten my knees slowly.

everything mentioned here, i've tried to no avail....i kept this to myself(other than seeking help from Mark Collins, whom was extremely helpful fixing certain kinks in my body, but i just can't seem to really get anywhere with the PPT drills. passing HS/PE4 was more of a drag for the sensations in my hips rather than uptop with the weighted bar.

synthesis, i keep coming back to the same tools....and i dont want to keep having the same results. :/ 

also, when i contract my glutes as hard as i absolutely can, my legs seperate. does that mean anything? i can't have both. either i contract as hard as possible, legs seperate. i bring them together, cant contract them as hard as i can.

My PE:4 form improved from glutes strengthening and hip flexor stretching. I can now nearly put my heels on the floor with straight legs while maintaining enough PPT to keep my back flat against the floor.

I would have thought if you had enough PPT for PE4 you would have enough for this IM?

speaking of tools, i've been searching all morning for techniques on how to release the lower back and etc and came across this video. 

went ahead and took a picture of my lumbar spine and voila. 

throw a nice decorative sheet and i could be a small standing coffee table. explains the wierd shape the sides of my body makes when bending forward....unless it's padding....you know...for short falls....anyway. 

thoughts? ....besides telling me to audition for soul train.

Murray Truelove said:

My PE:4 form improved from glutes strengthening and hip flexor stretching. I can now nearly put my heels on the floor with straight legs while maintaining enough PPT to keep my back flat against the floor.

I would have thought if you had enough PPT for PE4 you would have enough for this IM?

I did PE4 with hip width stance. decided to keep working PE5 and PE4 in tandem. which is why i incorporated 2 sets of it + bodyline drills in my Handstand workout

also, what kind of glute strengthening did you do? 

There was a thread a while back in F1 that had a few links in it about exercises you can do to help you breathe into lower back allowing it to round, this was used for his clients who like you don't round at all. I can try and track it down but vaguely remember seeing you in that thread.

i do remember that thread. it was Adriano's. thanks for the redirect.  

I've tried a few times myself with a little success. I think I did it using a rolled up towel placed over my lap while sitting in a chair, lean forward getting your chest to your knees and breath deep.

The towel now sandwiched between your abdomen and your quads restricts your diaphragm expansion towards your lower back. On an exhale you should feel your lower back curve more, repeat.

I am not a doctor. This exercise was found on a website and possibly explained inaccurately.

Don't be too hard on yourself as you have done really well for someone that has a genetic shape of increased lordosis. You need to get your Front lever series moving quicker so you can get up to hollow body holds. They make a huge difference. The better the HBH the better the position of the low back in handstand. Also H2 IMs stretch the lumbar spine into flexion like nothing else I have seen. The video you posted is like child's play compared to the H2 iMs.

Have you had any treatment to your back yet? If not this needs to be a priority to accelerate your progress.

How much bike riding are you doing lately? Most cyclists have terrible anterior hip tightness and need to stretch a lot to compensate.

Mark Collins said:

Don't be too hard on yourself as you have done really well for someone that has a genetic shape of increased lordosis. You need to get your Front lever series moving quicker so you can get up to hollow body holds. They make a huge difference. The better the HBH the better the position of the low back in handstand. Also H2 IMs stretch the lumbar spine into flexion like nothing else I have seen. The video you posted is like child's play compared to the H2 iMs.

Have you had any treatment to your back yet? If not this needs to be a priority to accelerate your progress.

How much bike riding are you doing lately? Most cyclists have terrible anterior hip tightness and need to stretch a lot to compensate.

no, i havent had any treatment done. what type of treatment should I ask for? usually I'll get something more like a "pat down" when I go to my chiropractor and/or massage therapists because i either can't afford it or they are not qualified to give me the treatment i need.. sometimes i'll have things put in place but i feel no real change because as soon as i get back to my workout, mobility is the same. 

and i've only been doing 1-2 sessions a week at a skatepark. i'm not riding long distance like on a mountain bike. 

Keilani Gutierrez said:

no, i havent had any treatment done. what type of treatment should I ask for? usually I'll get something more like a "pat down" when I go to my chiropractor and/or massage therapists because i either can't afford it or they are not qualified to give me the treatment i need.. sometimes i'll have things put in place but i feel no real change because as soon as i get back to my workout, mobility is the same. 

 

and i've only been doing 1-2 sessions a week at a skatepark. i'm not riding long distance like on a mountain bike.

If you are not feeling a long term change then you need to change therapists. Ask for aggressive soft tissue releases of the psoas, iliacus, quadrants lumborum, lumbar erector spinae, quads and deep hip rotators.

Keilani, my question is how accurate is your signature these days? Are you truly still on PE1 for almost all F1 progressions after all this time? Maybe I missed something here, are you still working F1? Because all the stretching and rolling is great I'm sure, but I'm with Mark here. Maybe what you need is to sink more energy into Foundation rather than into HS iMs five progressions beyond your working level.

I'm in the same boat here, I have some deeply rooted and stubborn anterior tilt. FL and sPL progressions are my primary bodyline drills right now. Potent medicine, for sure.

Kei, your lumbar is a one-piece-block, it is obvious that you can't PPT with that rock. I normally see this in the fist day of any person in Pilates. In your case it is strange because you do things, but maybe you don't put enfasis in the actual WORK.

Stop the rolling thing and put more work on:

Jefferson Curl. Focus on this mantra: One vertebrae at a time. Even stop the movement when you get to lumbar area.

FL progressions. Work a lot the PPT there. 

A lot of stretching. Not rolling. Stretching. Stretching. Stretching. More stretching. More mobility. 

My ass is big too (same as yours), and my PPT was awful but it is improving with time. My lumbar is flexible (now, never was)  but my lack of PPT comes from other areas (years of football) related to muscles/tendons, hip flexors and all the hip area. 

Put more time in the things you know that works. And I think that Jeffersons and FLprogressions are the way to go here. Put more time in HS/iM bodyline withouth thinking about "perfect form" or else, just do them! 

And keep stretching, stretching, stretching. More and more and more. And WORK YOUR ASS OFF WITH F1!

Cheers (K)

trw said:

Keilani, my question is how accurate is your signature these days? Are you truly still on PE1 for almost all F1 progressions after all this time? Maybe I missed something here, are you still working F1? Because all the stretching and rolling is great I'm sure, but I'm with Mark here. Maybe what you need is to sink more energy into Foundation rather than into HS iMs five progressions beyond your working level.

 

I'm in the same boat here, I have some deeply rooted and stubborn anterior tilt. FL and sPL progressions are my primary bodyline drills right now. Potent medicine, for sure.

1. I've only changed the signature on elements i am absolutely certain i've moved on from, in respect to the FL progressions for example, i've held myself back for the same reasons. when I rock, I do not rock smoothly. I feel a lump. i've always felt a lump. even when i could do 2x60, 2x36,1x20. which is my best to show for FL as of now. as for "working" out of my level, i can prove mastery on all PPT drills upto the one i posted, as a diagnostic tool to see how my PPT has improved. all i feel is this wall i can't cross. where literally my body just says "here's my stop." if I push farther, i risk the injuries i gave myself early in the year which was pissing off my shoulder girdle, my elbows and my knee/hip joint discomfort when walking or even sitting/standing...a very deep discomfort in the joint where my body would just make me go "stop. do nothing. don't move me". so, trust me, after going through that twice, im in no hurry to repeat that. i've got something going on...i don't know what the heck it is, but im not going to let myself move on until i've completely ironed out what i'm not doing correctly. 

Adriano Augusto said:

Kei, your lumbar is a one-piece-block, it is obvious that you can't PPT with that rock. I normally see this in the fist day of any person in Pilates. In your case it is strange because you do things, but maybe you don't put enfasis in the actual WORK.

 

Stop the rolling thing and put more work on:

 

Jefferson Curl. Focus on this mantra: One vertebrae at a time. Even stop the movement when you get to lumbar area.

 

FL progressions. Work a lot the PPT there. 

 

A lot of stretching. Not rolling. Stretching. Stretching. Stretching. More stretching. More mobility. 

 

My ass is big too (same as yours), and my PPT was awful but it is improving with time. My lumbar is flexible (now, never was)  but my lack of PPT comes from other areas (years of football) related to muscles/tendons, hip flexors and all the hip area. 

 

Put more time in the things you know that works. And I think that Jeffersons and FLprogressions are the way to go here. Put more time in HS/iM bodyline withouth thinking about "perfect form" or else, just do them! 

 

And keep stretching, stretching, stretching. More and more and more. And WORK YOUR ASS OFF WITH F1!

 

Cheers (K)

eso mismo siento yo. por mas que le e dado al FL de piernas dobladas, no e podido encontrar un alivio en mi espalda. siempre se queda asi. y no te creas que no e estirado, yo estado haciendo los estiramientos de Kit (hasta por recomendacion de Cory) por meses. especialmente desde cuando empeze a trabajar el ABH con hip extension en vez de comprimir mi lumbar, por que eso SI que me daba molestia. e estado en un wall hip flexor stretch por un set de 4-5minutos cada uno en cada pierna, por dos rondas. no es como si fuese un indoctrinado de foam rolling y eso es todo lo que hago. ya hoy en dia casi ni lo hago fuera de un warm up o para darme algo para hacer cuando estoy en el piso viendo algun programa en mi computadora. 

como le comente a trw, por falta de hacer los WOD's no es. es algo que o estoy haciendo mal o que sigo haciendo en los movimientos que me tienen asi y ya estoy cansado de estar igual, trabajando como se que tengo que hacer, llegar a la practica, ser honesto con lo que tengo arfrente de mi. por eso pido ayuda, por que ya se que no puedo solo. necesito ayuda profesional de un terapista fisico. por que por lo que yo puedo ver, esto no lo puedo arreglar en casa con remedies caceros. 

Keilani Gutierrez said:

1. I've only changed the signature on elements i am absolutely certain i've moved on from, in respect to the FL progressions for example, i've held myself back for the same reasons. when I rock, I do not rock smoothly. I feel a lump. i've always felt a lump. even when i could do 2x60, 2x36,1x20. which is my best to show for FL as of now. as for "working" out of my level, i can prove mastery on all PPT drills upto the one i posted, as a diagnostic tool to see how my PPT has improved. all i feel is this wall i can't cross. where literally my body just says "here's my stop." if I push farther, i risk the injuries i gave myself early in the year which was pissing off my shoulder girdle, my elbows and my knee/hip joint discomfort when walking or even sitting/standing...a very deep discomfort in the joint where my body would just make me go "stop. do nothing. don't move me". so, trust me, after going through that twice, im in no hurry to repeat that. i've got something going on...i don't know what the heck it is, but im not going to let myself move on until i've completely ironed out what i'm not doing correctly. 

Hmm, sorry to hear it. Have you posted videos of the previous PPT drills for community scrutiny, or the FL progression for that matter, to see if there's anything you're missing? I sympathize, we all have our dragons to slay. It's the lower back for me, few times a year I'll have a spasm down there that puts me out for at least a few days, usually a week. That anterior tilt, it's sinister.

there's only more training in FL PE 1 for me...i still havent made the jump from 5x36 to 4x48. and when i test my progress with trying a rock or two, it hasnt improved the extreme stiffness i have in the lower back. it just doesnt round. when i try PPT, i reach a point where i cant contract anymore, its my absolute strongest contraction...its just a light shed on a weakness...its just wierd that i havent been able to get past that wall, mobility wise.

Same for me! I guess i have a hollow back by nature as well, but tucked versions or straddle are at least ok, but right now im on pe 5 and also after stretching a lot i cant flatten my lower back like other people do. Hope you will find a way for this. I never made it to a doctor, probably its time to...after all this foundation work my posture improved nothing when i walk or stay in free time or at work. But i dont know why

Hey, I am interested in an update, K! Any good results from these past months? I love to see the learning process for other people As someone on this forum once said five years ago, the handstand will teach you more about your body than any other movement.

I started doing HS PE5 with a bit of a wide straddle and i'm moving the legs in as long as I can see my lower back getting somewhat like the athlete on the prone ppt vid. it's made the PE pretty intense even with the 2.2kg. pure shoulder flexion carnage.

Also started doing glute bridges and side planks along with consistent stretching has been giving my lower body some love. haven't taken a photo of my lower back lately, I'm going to start Jefferson curls next week to see how that goes for the next 3 months. gonna take a picture at the end of every month to check for progress. 

I'm starting to notice different lines of inflexibility in my quads too, definitely from always stretching the same line, so im learning how to tilt and drop my pelvis on the lunge stretch and the floor quad stretch to hit my tighest line. i'm seeing the progress from the prone ppt position with my legs slightly narrower, i have a feeling my legs will come together soon. we'll see if it's around the same time i can dislocate at mastery without derping my shoulder. 

that's about all i got to say.