Jefferson curls

I was listening to coach on the Robb wolf podcast and he was saying how good Jefferson curls are for back health.  I was a wrestler for many years and work in a construction/ tech support job. I did crossfit for about 1 and a half years then hurt my back.  Several months later I heard of foundations and have started it to rehab and prevent future injuries. I have had back pain for many years that usually isn't bad and comes and goes. 

I tried doing a set of 10 un weighted slow Jefferson curls, only going down as far as I could without pain.  I encountered a lot of pain in my mid back and Lat area.  Felt like my back was tearing apart.  Now I have a lingering back pain in the whole back.

What could be causing this? tight muscles, ligaments etc.. and are there any progressions for the Jefferson curl.  Any other ideas for regaining back mobility and health would be appreciated.

I have started foundations one and have been doing it for 2 months.  All my skills and mobility are at 1.  I only do foundations and some light rowing as a workout right now. 

Hard to say without evaluating you, but it sounds like the Crossfit may have done you in a bit.  I've seen many clients and athletes end up with spondylolysis (stress fracture in the pars interarticularis or "side of the vertebrae") after doing Crossfit for a number of months.  If so, certainly spine flexion will hurt a lot, as will extension from over flexion.  Could also be a disc issue (you don't necessarily have to have radiating pain for a disc bulge).

As far as what to do from a F1 standpoint, I think coach is better off answering that.

I see a chiropractor and he hasn't mentioned anything. It feels more like muscle or ligaments. I will ask my chiro regarding the disks.

Brandon Stickel said:

I tried doing a set of 10 un weighted slow Jefferson curls, only going down as far as I could without pain. I encountered a lot of pain in my mid back and Lat area. Felt like my back was tearing apart. Now I have a lingering back pain in the whole back.

What could be causing this? tight muscles, ligaments etc.. and are there any progressions for the Jefferson curl.

How could you do 10 reps of Jefferson Curls "only going as far as you could without pain" and encounter a lot of pain in your lower and mid back?

This seems to clearly indicate that you were indeed going to and beyond the point where you felt pain and not heeding Coach's advice to not attack mobility work with the same intensity as strength work. That is why you have pain in your back from these.

As for progressions, how is your form on the Stiff Legged Windmills?

I am about as far down on the windmills, but with no pain. I should have clarified. Pain did not come till last few and then lingered. I probably should have stopped earlier but I'm a meat head what can I say. Trying to work out of it but it'll take some time.

For the windmills I am only using 10 lbs and guiding my hand down my leg as I go to keep aligned.

So I take it your suggestion is to work on wind mills and forget the rest until the body has adjusted and I can bend over while arching the back without pain.

During the windmills my back is relatively straight, not flexed at each joint as per a Jefferson curl. The flexion seems to be what gets me.

I'll take it slower, thanks for the insight.

Brandon Stickel said:

I am about as far down on the windmills, but with no pain. I should have clarified. Pain did not come till last few and then lingered. I probably should have stopped earlier but I'm a meat head what can I say. Trying to work out of it but it'll take some time.

For the windmills I am only using 10 lbs and guiding my hand down my leg as I go to keep aligned.

So I take it your suggestion is to work on wind mills and forget the rest until the body has adjusted and I can bend over while arching the back without pain.

During the windmills my back is relatively straight, not flexed at each joint as per a Jefferson curl. The flexion seems to be what gets me.

I'll take it slower, thanks for the insight.

Back pain can be really serious. See a doctor.

Brandon, in my opinion long term on/off lower back problems are ALWAYS involving suffering discs.

To clarify, I am an Osteopath and have seen hundreds of people, literally, with both short term acute and chronic back issues. As an example, I am currently treating and rehabilitating a 22 year old who came to 3 weeks ago because of lower back pain. Cross fitter the last 18 months, Rugby as a youngster at school, back pain on off for 6 years and 3 months ago, a more serious episode. He had already seen a chiropractor and another Osteopath who both FAILED to tell him it was bad discs. I say FAILED because it happens so often and annoys me that therapists drag people along without properly diagnosing. When it comes to the lower back, muscles and ligaments don't go wrong in isolation, the spine works as vertebral segments and the ALWAYS suffer due to TOO MUCH COMPRESSION. Muscles that are tight and painful will definitely be that way because of reflex issues of the nervous system caused by deeper underlying issues like disc bulges or prolapses.

I knew from the history this guys had disc bulges and told him he probably had more than one. Asked home to get an MRI, which he did through his GP and he has one prolapse and one bulge.

I say this not to scare you but to highlight that you will have some degree of disc involvement that can range from slight swelling to bulge to tear to prolapse.

Jefferson curls PUT MORE COMPRESSION ON LUMBAR DISCS, this is a fact. I have spoken to coach about this personally and am in the process of putting some material together to clarify the issue. This doesn't mean I don't advocate them. For those with lower back issues, you want the traction benefit of the Jefferson curl which happens when your spine is inverted relatively from the pelvis at the bottom of the movement. If your hamstrings and calves are too tight to get down then you HAVE TO BEND YOUR KNEES to allow your spine past 90 degrees and achieve decompression on the discs. Even this can be sore though because a sore disc will hurt a little even if you decompress it, though it is ultimately beneficial. Avoid the curl down process for now. The reason it hurt at the end of you set is because it took the first reps to slowly load and pressurisé the discs before the level of pressu're entered your consciousness as pain. Discs are a dense type of connective tissue/fascia and take time to change, be patient and stick to ranges of movement that don't cause pain, avoid those that do as a simple rule for now.

Keep up with foundations as it will help and no lifting!

Wesley 

On a previous post, FC for people who can't sit straight, Coach advised me to try partial poses. I guess Wes' approach is very reasonanble. And I'm even going to thank Coach on the other topic, as I can now do proper JCs and my back fells better after the exercise than before.

I had some "dry" discs, making my vertebrae hit each other. Now, it's fixed. I can't however, pinpoint JC as the sole cause, as I've been working with a phisiotherapist too.

Thank you so much for the advice guys. This has been very helpful.

How is the back going now?

The Jefferson Curl is a great exercise that is very beneficial for the spine. There is a reason why coach didn't put it as the first exercise and you found out. You need to be careful when testing exercises that are ahead of your capabilities. The JC stretches and loads a lot of structures that you are not use to. It could be anything from fascia, joint, disc, muscle, nerve and ligament. Any one of those in the hamstrings, hip, pelvis, lumbar spine and thoracic spine could have caused your pain. Unless thoroughly assessed and treated as the cause of the pain you won't know. We can't assume it was just his disc because he flexed under load and got pain. There is a lot of fear about flexion and hurting the disc. I have had plenty of patients with an acute tear in the disc that get relief with lumbar flexion and are aggravated with extension.

Make sure you focus on getting the windmill mastered and the tuck up. The BHBH will help with your PPT. You can do some supine knees to chest stretching. I have patients do assisted cul ups, which is like a seated Jefferson Curl. I do this for patients before they do tuck ups as they are very deconditioned. I have had patients that have terrible backs build up to doing light Jefferson curls at 2kg. It is amazing how they adapt and improve.

Keep with the program and progress when your body is ready.

Good point Mark about acute tears hurting on extension too, I too have seen this frequently, but not with less acute disc issues. Minor bulges seem always to hurt more with flexion.

The reason I was quick in this case to highlight the likelyhood of discs is due to the history of intermittent back pain, construction work, wrestling and the cross fit back pain episode where the spine and discs would have definitely been put under HIGH loads. All these factors point to disc involvement.

You are right about lots of fear around regarding flexion exercises, and I think this is rightly so when it comes to the standing exercises. Flexion exercises can be used as you say in the rehab process and I too use these, but in the lying positions where the spinal load is considerably less.

Ultimately I agree that the JC can provide lots of benefits but there is a definite risk that needs to be considered, especially with a history of lower back pain and I would always air on the side of caution as you can't undo the damage once it's done! Particularly in Brandons case as pain was produced without any additional weight being added.

Out of interest, It would be good to know how much mobility Brandon has in his posterior chain, hamstrings/calves etc and groin/adductors. Shortness in these areas will feed tension and compression up into the spine via the fascial chains.

If you work on freeing the legs, the spine will always breath and move more easily.

As Mark says, keep with the programme and listen to your body.

Thank you for the information guys. My back finally feels normal. It was very sore for about 3 days in the L3, L4 area and I had an inconsistent kind of sharp pain in the spine right below the shoulder blades. This led me to not really workout at all for the last 4days. I did however try sitting in a chair and gently bending as far forward as I could go with a bent back trying to go for decompression as you suggested. Felt great.

I do have very tight calves and hamstrings from years of running and jump rope. I will incorporate some stretching to those areas. Hips are not to bad, but not as loose as they should be.

I am thinking I might repeat the last block of foundations and do extra stretching, mobility on the off days. How's that sound? And any suggestions?

Glad to hear your feeling better Brandon!

Good idea to repeat the last block of your foundations,  you can even do a block at a slightly lower level of intensity than your last to ease your body back into the training after the injury. I know coach recommends doing this after injuries to allow the body enough time to strengthen and heal.

About the Jefferson Curls too Brandon, I didn't mean to scare you from doing them but wanted you to be extra cautious whilst your qck was hurting. Remember it will still be recovering even though the pain has gone so approach them slowly. The JC's are a great way to open up the posterior chain, calves/hamstrings/back just don't rush to add weight. Same logic with wrist injuries and handstands, don't push through pain!

Definitely got to work on the mobility more if you have those areas of tightness, so good idea to work that on your days off. Don't push your stretches too hard, you can't rush connectives tissue, they adapt at a slower rate than muscle tissue.