RC/PE6 Bent arm chin hang stalling/plateau'd

Hi guys

I've been working on RC/PE6 bent arm chin hang for what must be 6 months now (embarrassingly enough maybe 7)....and I'm still struggling at the 40sec mark. I can do x5 sets of 40secs but any more & I struggle, I've noted my timings here:

(2nd means 2nd training session of the week)

MY DELOAD WEEKS ARE NOT LISTED BUT I CAN ASSURE YOU I CONSISTENTLY DID THEM EVERY 4TH WEEK.

30s, 30s, 30s, 12s, 30s

35, 35, 35, 22, 28

35, 35, 35, 24, 35 - 2nd - 35, 35, 35, 35

35, 35, 35, 10, 28, 22 - 2nd 35, 35, 35, 35, 35

40, 40, 23, 40, 40 2nd - 40, 40, 24, 40

50, 36, 24, 24 2nd - 45, 45, 28, 45, 25

45, 45, 27, 45, 24, 39 2nd - 45, 34, 45, 30, 32

45, 45, 45, 30, 30 2nd - 45, 45, 45, 22

50, 21, 50, 26, 34 2nd - 50, 50, 27, 33

50, 50, 25, 30, 30 2nd - 50, 50, 26, 34, 30

50, 50, 24, 50 2nd - 50, 50, 25, 28

50, 50, 30, 22 2nd - 50, 50, 32, 34

50, 40, 40, 32, 28 2nd - 50, 40, 45, 30

40, 45, 25, 30 2nd - 40, 40, 40, 28

45, 45, 35, 31 2nd - 45, 45, 34, 28

45, 45, 45, 21, 31 2nd - not performed as sick

36, 36, 25, 36, 36 2nd - 36, 36, 36, 14, 36

40, 40, 40, 40 2nd - 40, 40, 40, 39

40, 40, 40, 40, 15, 40 2nd - 40, 40, 40, 40, 40

40, 40, 15, 40 2nd - 40, 40, 40, 40,

45, 45, 25, 39

42, 42, 24, 42, 42 2nd- 2nd - 45, 45, 25, 39

42, 42, 24, 42, 42 2nd- 42, 42, 22, 42, 42

42, 42, 19, 34, 31

I've gone as high as 50secs but only for a couple of sets.

What can I do? Mini cycles?

Or just stick to 40secs every week?

Much love

Don

How are you doing with PE1 through 5?  Did you master them or just say "I think I can do that?"  I faced a similar struggle with PE6, so I bought some rings and actually tried PE1 and wasn't able to do it.  (I had rationalized to myself that I should start at PE6 since I could already do sets of 10 pull-ups.)

Assuming you really have mastered PE1-5, some ideas for breaking through the plateau.  See what works for you and report back:

1. Actually do the 60 seconds for each rep.  If you fail at 40s, take a short 10s break, then hop back up and hold the last 20s
2. Hold the end positions of PE1-5 for 5x60s.  
3. Work on really mastering 5x36s.  Then 4x36s + 1x48s.  Then 3x36s + 2x48s.  2x36s + 3x48s. 1x36s + 4x48s. 5x48s. 4x48s + 1x60s.  (With deloads every 4 weeks of course)
4. Put a stretchy band under your armpits to take a little weight off
5. Do the work just as you're doing but punish yourself with a rep of PE1 for every second you fall short

Try on the last set to go down as slow ans you can. 10-12 seconds it's best way.

DonGray said:

Hi guys

I've been working on RC/PE6 bent arm chin hang for what must be 6 months now (embarrassingly enough maybe 7)....and I'm still struggling at the 40sec mark. I can do x5 sets of 40secs but any more & I struggle, I've noted my timings here:

(2nd means 2nd training session of the week)

MY DELOAD WEEKS ARE NOT LISTED BUT I CAN ASSURE YOU I CONSISTENTLY DID THEM EVERY 4TH WEEK.

30s, 30s, 30s, 12s, 30s

35, 35, 35, 22, 28

35, 35, 35, 24, 35 - 2nd - 35, 35, 35, 35

35, 35, 35, 10, 28, 22 - 2nd 35, 35, 35, 35, 35

40, 40, 23, 40, 40 2nd - 40, 40, 24, 40

50, 36, 24, 24 2nd - 45, 45, 28, 45, 25

45, 45, 27, 45, 24, 39 2nd - 45, 34, 45, 30, 32

45, 45, 45, 30, 30 2nd - 45, 45, 45, 22

50, 21, 50, 26, 34 2nd - 50, 50, 27, 33

50, 50, 25, 30, 30 2nd - 50, 50, 26, 34, 30

50, 50, 24, 50 2nd - 50, 50, 25, 28

50, 50, 30, 22 2nd - 50, 50, 32, 34

50, 40, 40, 32, 28 2nd - 50, 40, 45, 30

40, 45, 25, 30 2nd - 40, 40, 40, 28

45, 45, 35, 31 2nd - 45, 45, 34, 28

45, 45, 45, 21, 31 2nd - not performed as sick

36, 36, 25, 36, 36 2nd - 36, 36, 36, 14, 36

40, 40, 40, 40 2nd - 40, 40, 40, 39

40, 40, 40, 40, 15, 40 2nd - 40, 40, 40, 40, 40

40, 40, 15, 40 2nd - 40, 40, 40, 40,

45, 45, 25, 39

42, 42, 24, 42, 42 2nd- 2nd - 45, 45, 25, 39

42, 42, 24, 42, 42 2nd- 42, 42, 22, 42, 42

42, 42, 19, 34, 31

I've gone as high as 50secs but only for a couple of sets.

What can I do? Mini cycles?

Or just stick to 40secs every week?

Much love

Don

Looking at your sets my question would be why is it that in one session you would have varying times such as 50, 21, 50, 26, 34? Were you doing this on purpose or did fatigue set in quicker on first set and then you would or had to do less on the next? Either way the best thing you can do in respect to that is have more consistency. In that case I would agree with text0413's number 3:

tex0413 said:

 

1. Work on really mastering 5x36s.  Then 4x36s + 1x48s.  Then 3x36s + 2x48s.  2x36s + 3x48s. 1x36s + 4x48s. 5x48s. 4x48s + 1x60s.  (With deloads every 4 weeks of course)

Stick with a number for all sets and perform that for a mini cycle knowing that even on a bad day you can still do it. Then as you advance the reason for this is also too then see if at some point you start under performing as you move on in a mini-cycle (which I can't tell if you are since I can't see where the de-loads are allocated). You seem to stick with the same volume throughout the whole mini-cycle so you might be frying yourself without even knowing it! Remember killing yourself every workout can be counter productive and sometimes less is more. So I would say:

1. Look for that consistency in your training so as to properly evaluate yourself
2. Don't aim for a number you can't do throughout the whole mini-cycle. Means it too much.
3. Later try to increment throughout the mini-cycle rather than stick with your best effort throughout the whole mini-cycle. In other words imitate the template of Foundation.

DonGray, At what point have you been calling it quits during a set?

The point where you muscle start to feel a "Burn" or when you run out of muscular endurance and your body starts to lower itself down?

GoldenEagle said:

At what point do you call it quits in a set?

 

The point where you muscle start to feel a "Burn" or when you run out of muscular endurance and your body starts to lower itself down?

Option B, when you run out of muscular endurance to hold yourself in the static. You unfortunately have to fight through that burn to improve. The only time you would want to hold on even if your body starts to lower is because you're trying to break through a plateau. Like what alex87 had commented about going down as slowly as possible on your last set.

When trying to break through plateaus though, it's best to only change one or two things at time and give it at least a micro-cycle to see any changes. This way you know for sure and for future reference as well, what actually works for you in helping you move forward. 

Kevin Sach said:

Option B, when you run out of muscular endurance to hold yourself in the static. You unfortunately have to fight through that burn to improve. The only time you would want to hold on even if your body starts to lower is because you're trying to break through a plateau. Like what alex87 had commented about going down as slowly as possible on your last set.

 

When trying to break through plateaus though, it's best to only change one or two things at time and give it at least a micro-cycle to see any changes. This way you know for sure and for future reference as well, what actually works for you in helping you move forward. 

I am well aware of that. 

Maybe I didn't make myself clear as to who I was addressing in my initial post. However I was asking the original poster the question and it certainly wasn't because I wasn't sure when to quit during a set myself.

The first time I went through RC/PE6 I mastered it and began testing for mastery of other the preparatory exercises.

Because I actually had fun with the exercise I am doing PE6 again during non-foundation workouts twice a week while hanging from 1 inch(2.54cm)crown moulding. Feel free to ask me where I am at if anyone is curious.

GoldenEagle said:

I am well aware of that. 

 

Maybe I didn't make myself clear as to who I was addressing in my initial post. However I was asking the original poster the question and it certainly wasn't because I wasn't sure when to quit during a set myself.

 

The first time I went through RC/PE6 I mastered it and began testing for mastery of other the preparatory exercises.

 

Because I actually had fun with the exercise I am doing PE6 again during non-foundation workouts twice a week while hanging from 1 inch(2.54cm)crown moulding. Feel free to ask me where I am at if anyone is curious.

Whoops. Well that's embarrassing . I thought as well why would you ask that question considering the amount of posts you've put up. Well that was quite fortunate you could do it first time. I hope I'm that lucky when I get there. Well at least DonGray, you got some more info there. My bad GoldenEagle with head of a lion

I know the stock answer to this (see multiple other threads on same topic) is to push through it, try microcycles, etc.  I myself have even suggested greasing the groove or doing more sets of less reps to equal the same amount of reps you're shooting for.  However, with time and study i think the problem is too long in an accumulation (volume) phase.  You're actually losing ground on your sets from your peak.  I think a deload week, 2 weeks of intensity (i.e. a harder exercise you can only do 3-5 reps of, like perhaps pull ups or L-pull ups), then return to this accumulation phase and you will see substantial improvements.  

Our bodies do better with more variation.  You're building larger myofibrils with volume (hypertrophy) type training.  Now you need to pack in more sarcomeres and improve the motor unit neurologic firing (intensity/max strength type training).  

There seems to be a consistent pattern there, where very often your 3rd set is the worst performance-wise.

To me, if you weren't able to do X seconds on set 3, there's no reason you can do so on set 5 other than you gave up too soon in the former one (unless, as said already by others, this is on purpose).

MT Nordic said:

I know the stock answer to this (see multiple other threads on same topic) is to push through it, try microcycles, etc.  I myself have even suggested greasing the groove or doing more sets of less reps to equal the same amount of reps you're shooting for.  However, with time and study i think the problem is too long in an accumulation (volume) phase.  You're actually losing ground on your sets from your peak.  I think a deload week, 2 weeks of intensity (i.e. a harder exercise you can only do 3-5 reps of, like perhaps pull ups or L-pull ups), then return to this accumulation phase and you will see substantial improvements.  

 

Our bodies do better with more variation.  You're building larger myofibrils with volume (hypertrophy) type training.  Now you need to pack in more sarcomeres and improve the motor unit neurologic firing (intensity/max strength type training).  

Interesting approach MT. Would adding weight to the hold achieve the same effect you're looking for with respect to increasing the intensity? If so, how much shorter should the more intense holds be?

You could also add weight to get the desired effect. The goal is for the time under tension to be low enough that it is stimulating the ATP pathway fully without allowing accumulation of lactic acid. So for most people that would prob be a max hold of less than 10 seconds. It depends on the person. Some advanced trainees may not accumulate lactate until as long as 30 seconds. In general shooting for 6-10 seconds would be ideal. So some experimentation would be needed to assess what that weight would be.

You could also add weight to get the desired effect. The goal is for the time under tension to be low enough that it is stimulating the ATP pathway fully without allowing accumulation of lactic acid. So for most people that would prob be a max hold of less than 10 seconds. It depends on the person. Some advanced trainees may not accumulate lactate until as long as 30 seconds. In general shooting for 6-10 seconds would be ideal. So some experimentation would be needed to assess what that weight would be.

MT Nordic said:

I know the stock answer to this (see multiple other threads on same topic) is to push through it, try microcycles, etc. I myself have even suggested greasing the groove or doing more sets of less reps to equal the same amount of reps you're shooting for. However, with time and study i think the problem is too long in an accumulation (volume) phase. You're actually losing ground on your sets from your peak. I think a deload week, 2 weeks of intensity (i.e. a harder exercise you can only do 3-5 reps of, like perhaps pull ups or L-pull ups), then return to this accumulation phase and you will see substantial improvements.

Our bodies do better with more variation. You're building larger myofibrils with volume (hypertrophy) type training. Now you need to pack in more sarcomeres and improve the motor unit neurologic firing (intensity/max strength type training).

I've read plenty on Intensity vs Accumulation phases as well, but I haven't personally seen any empirical evidence to suggest that as a whole our bodies adapt/perform better with this approach.

I think it might be accurate to say that "your" body seems to respond better to such a schedule and that it could be something for someone else to try should they hit a truly insurmountable plateau though, so I'm not saying that it's not valid advice.

But the whole "our bodies work better with more variation" (the whole muscle confusion thing) just isn't true. The truth is that this is just a marketing ploy designed to continually sell more exercise magazines or workout videos and also to appease the extremely limited attention span and lack of patience of most "Westerners". Our bodies adapt specifically to the demands that we place on them, so if we want specific adaptations (muscular endurance in the case of RC/PE6) we just need to expose our bodies to a demand which will induce such adaptations and just sit back and wait. Sometimes things just take longer than we want them to; remember Coach's story about his athlete who took 3 years to get a perfect front flip (but then blasted through a bunch of more difficult flip variations in a matter of weeks) and use that to try to keep things in perspective when you are stuck at a plateau.

Changing things constantly might "keep our bodies guessing", and might even have some benefit in regards to weight/fat loss, but it's going to mean that our bodies also continually try to adapt to different demands and as such never fully adapt to any of them. Not really what we want if trying to progress in GST.

Sorry for the rant, one of my pet peeve subjects.

Don Gray, 

All I can say is that I am right there with you.  PE 6 has been my bane.  And this is not because I have dropped because of discomfort.  My neighbors think I am nuts already, but when I scream out to help hold on a second or two more, it is not helping with my reputation.  I am thinking of chopping off a leg, since the focus of leg work is the single leg squat.  

Sorry Keegan. Fine to rant if you'd like. But there is evidence that this is beneficial. Is it helpful for everyone...obviously not, nothing is. Am I basing it on what works for me, no. Anecdotal evidence isn't worth a nickel. I'm a scientist, so I do things based on studies and based on more than just one persons experience. Does that sometimes put me behind the cutting edge, yes. I'd rather not be the first person to do something, and I sure don't want to be the last person to do something, but I do use the scientific method when working on my training programming so as not to reinvent the wheel. I'm just sharing another point of view because sometimes people bump up against plateaus and they can't get past them because the programming cannot be right for every person.

The thing that struck me was the regularity of the second digit in most of your sets. You went for a nearly a whole month of hitting 40 seconds (no 38's 39's or 41's), and now you're sitting on a bunch of 42s. It seems too neat to me.  My guess is that you are watching the clock as you hang? 

Perhaps breaking that mental and physical link (seeing 37... 38... 39... 40... tick over and knowing that your previous limit is approaching) would help? Can you get someone else to time you, or maybe have an audio timer that counts you in (the Impetus app has been mentioned elsewhere and is very good) and keeps track unitl your done - place it so that you just can't see the time it until you drop. 

Might be interesting if you got someone else to do the timing for you, it could a mental block.

You could also try moving it to the front of your workout and see if that helps.

Wolf with one Ear said:

 

 I am thinking of chopping off a leg, since the focus of leg work is the single leg squat.  

Good point.  Losing unnecessary weight would surely help.  I know I have a few pounds that make everything a little more difficult.

Wow thanks guys for the great responses!

Golden Eagle - Sometimes failure comes from actual muscular fatigue but normally on the last set, but frequently from mental fatigue (depending on how stressful my day has been at work). I think I may well have a mental block...

With regards to periodising I have actually tried to cycle the times, but I think I just shut down mentally & ended up sticking with the previous weeks times.

I'm actually listening to a metronome & counting down in my head....I find I have to try & distract myself from focusing on the fatigue..but is so much more difficult on this exercise than HBPs or ABPs

Change your timing method, do the sets blind and see what happens - you'll probably surprise yourself. I used the Impetus timer app on my phone - gave myself an audio five count to begin and set the timer to sound the last three seconds. It meant I could focus wholly on swearing...

Out of interest for the guys who can do 5x60 seconds how long is your max hold for one set? Seeing how most everyone seems to have massive issues with this PE I went ahead and "tested the water" (im not yet at PE6) and did a single set to see how long I could hold- I managed 73 seconds and it was horrible (that was the point my body began to lower without my permission). Could have fought for a few more seconds if I really had to but I'm dreading the prospect of 5x60 with almost no rest inter-set...

MT Nordic said:

Sorry Keegan. Fine to rant if you'd like. But there is evidence that this is beneficial. Is it helpful for everyone...obviously not, nothing is. Am I basing it on what works for me, no. Anecdotal evidence isn't worth a nickel. I'm a scientist, so I do things based on studies and based on more than just one persons experience. Does that sometimes put me behind the cutting edge, yes. I'd rather not be the first person to do something, and I sure don't want to be the last person to do something, but I do use the scientific method when working on my training programming so as not to reinvent the wheel. I'm just sharing another point of view because sometimes people bump up against plateaus and they can't get past them because the programming cannot be right for every person.

I agree with the notion that individuals are, well, individuals. But I am curious how you can reconcile that statement with the notion that "anecdotal evidence isn't worth a nickel"; what is individual experience if not anecdotal?

Also, explain why you believe "the programming cannot be right for every person." And by the "programming" do you mean the 5 day a week split, 4 day split, 3 day split, or F7/H1 integrated schedules? Or do you mean the 60 rep template, or 30 rep template, 15 rep, 10 rep, or 5 rep schedule? Do you mean the concept of de-loading every 4 weeks? Or maybe you disagree with basing the program on the adaptation rate of connective tissue rather than muscle?

From my perspective the programming has plenty of wiggle room to allow for each individual to be able to adjust it to their personal recovery abilities. That is not the same as saying that if the programming is adjusted correctly that you'll never hit a plateau though, or that if you do hit one that it's because the programming is flawed/you are doing something wrong. "Short cuts" seldom actually result in faster progress in the long run.

And please cite some studies where the researchers took a bunch of adults and trained them to successfully be able to perform a Front Lever, Straddle Planche, Hollow Back Press, Rope Climbs, Manna, Side Lever, and Single leg Squats? I've been in Exercise science for over a decade and have read quite a few scientific journal articles in my time (both while earning my degree and afterwards for personal growth/education) and I've never seen anything even remotely like that. So what evidence are you citing that supports alternating accumulation phases with intensification phases produces faster/better results when developing Gymnastics Strength?

In fact, cite any study where the researchers take people from scratch to a high level of performance in any strength sport and show that such training is superior? Again, I've never seen any.

But hey, it's your body, so you are free to train it however you want.

OP, sorry for the rant. I don't want to continue to derail this thread, so I am not going to say anything else on this topic. Hopefully some of the suggestions in this thread will help you eventually surpass your current plateau. Good luck.

Gregory Bland said:

Out of interest for the guys who can do 5x60 seconds how long is your max hold for one set? Seeing how most everyone seems to have massive issues with this PE I went ahead and "tested the water" (im not yet at PE6) and did a single set to see how long I could hold- I managed 73 seconds and it was horrible (that was the point my body began to lower without my permission). Could have fought for a few more seconds if I really had to but I'm dreading the prospect of 5x60 with almost no rest inter-set...

Interesting question. I've not tried to go beyond. A minute isn't too bad for me. Maybe 1:30 to 2 min?

Wow, Keegan, that's some anger you've got there. First off I was trying to help op with some other ideas that I believe are well supported. I'm not going to continue this debate on this poor fellows post, but if anybody wants articles they can easily google periodization, verkozhanski, marveyev, Poliquin or Ian king and learn about the data and their experiences. Anyone who wants my sources can feel free to PM me.

To the OP, I mostly agree with what people are saying here, that your hold times make it appear you are not trying hard enough. That said, if you continue to be stuck with your current programming it may be worth switching things up to help your body get past the plateau you're experiencing. Cheers, over and out...