Planche - A different Progression Route?

Hi All

While I was practising my Frog Stand for a time, a new guy in my gym came over to me and asked what I was doing. I told him that I was starting to learn the Planche and this was the first progression of many in obtaining that particular skill. He looked at me puzzled and said "is this what your trying to do". He went straight into a full planche, but he said he never used any progression that I had described to him. He told me that he had seen a street dancer do the technique and decided to gain the skill himself. His method of obtaining the planche was through the use of resistance bands attached to his feet in the planche position, he decreased the resistance when holding the planche became easy at that particular resistance and he eventually was able to hold the planche with no resistance. I asked him how long it took for him to gain the Planche and he said only a few months.

I have coaches book and will stick to the progressions he has listed, I dont own any resistance bands anyway, but is this another viable means to gaining the Planche? Has any member progressed this way? The main problem I see with using the resistance bands is I feel that these will not build up strength in the core and upper body as good as coaches progressions.

Druid

Umm, it's a viable way that's similar to having a spotter who just goes lighter and lighter on the spot over time.

He was probably already beastly strong to begin with.

Blairbob said:

Umm, it's a viable way that's similar to having a spotter who just goes lighter and lighter on the spot over time.

He was probably already beastly strong to begin with.[/quote

What about using a swill ball on the feet? Can that work in any sense?

Brandon

Similar.

I've tried the band method and it works well. Helped me get the tuck planche. There was a post where somebody asked coach S. about this method, and his reply was to "give it a shot".

i like the bands method better than the swissball because i feel like it requires more stability and it pushes you forward into the position.

What I saw online on a youtube video for planche progressions was something like this:

1. Pseudo Push ups (Hip push ups) 3x20

2. Wall planche push ups 3x5

3. Straddle Planche 3x5

4. Full Planche push ups 3x5

Hope this helps. This is what I am trying now but I'm not even strong enough to get past 1st step. I can only do 3x (20,15,10) of those pseudo push ups and when I tried a wall planche, I couldn't even push myself up haha.

I don't get the idea to be able to do PPPU in an endurance range. Maybe to build up some hypertrophy or work capacity? Odd, because 3x5 is pretty good for strength, otherwise.

Yeah but I think the traditional reps and sets for weights (for endurance) 15+ isn't true all the time for bodyweight movements, the reps for strength tend to be higher but then 20 reps is a bit high, I was thinking more like 12-15.

Doing them up to 20 is not in the endurance range so much as the strength and size range, since at his speed that put him around 45 seconds for the set. It IS higher reps, but doing that helps you develop the smaller muscles and connective tissues. It also puts you in a position where you are now no longer in your strength zone, meaning you can do something harder. It really isn't much different that what Coach recommends with the steady state training, at least physiologically speaking. You end up underloaded, which is the point. It's a different way to get there, and combined with the steady state training it should speed up the timelines. Makes sense to me anyways I always made sure that before I jumped up in weight on things that I could do at least 10-15 reps consistently. I got stupidly strong, and so did my training partners

I do think there is merit in working up to 20 reps PPPu. Also, I'd like to point out that he is doing these fingers forward. That makes it SO much easier. Oh my god. Not taking anything away from him at all, I am just saying that he is being smart and using mechanical advantages. Eventually I want to be doing these fingers backwards.

Airness said:

Yeah but I think the traditional reps and sets for weights (for endurance) 15+ isn't true all the time for bodyweight movements, the reps for strength tend to be higher but then 20 reps is a bit high, I was thinking more like 12-15.

power, strength, and endurance aren't about rep numbers, those rep numbers just so happen to tend to put you near the correct set time lengths for certain training effects. It's about time under tension. If the muscles are working constantly for 1-20 seconds, you're going to get a power response. Your nervous system will become more efficient, and you will see strength gains because of that. If your sets last 20-40 seconds then you will get strength results, which means you will be experiencing myofibrillar hypertrophy. In layman's terms, there are going to be more actin and myosin strands in the muscle and so you willb e stronger. This adds minimal size. At 40-60 seconds you will be primarily adding size. This is sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, and it's literally the muscle cell increasing its fluid volume. This primarily adds size. From 60-90 seconds you are in the pure endurance zone. This set length really develops the muscular endurance, not strength so much. For these set lengths to mean anything, the set time has to be imposed by the resistance being too much for you somewhere in the given range. So if you do planche pushups and you can do them for a minute, but you stop at 30 seconds, you are not going to get strength out of that even though you are in the numerical range for strength. You did not fail in the 20-40 second range, you chose to stop. Choosing to stop doesn't mean anything. The end of the set has to be determined by the momentary failure of the muscles working for these times to translate to actual progress.

Obviously, as you approach one end of the time range for each training effect(power, strength, size, endurance) you will start to get a mixed training effect. It should be fairly obvious that if you fail at 38 seconds you are going to be gaining more size than if you fail at 24 seconds.

If you consider that typical reps take from 2-4 seconds to complete, at a 4 second repetition you would be doing 1-5 reps for power. Surprise! That's the traditional way of doing things. It just so happens that those rep ranges put the lifters in the correct time under tension range. In he same vein, 2 second reps would mean that 20 reps still puts you at the tail end of the strength range. You're moving into strength-endurance, which puts on a bit more size than maximal strength work, but hey, you're still getting a strong maximal strength effect as well.

Ahh. I see. Thanks slizzardman.

I've been, like the OP of this thread, trying to work towards a full planche push up but when I tried the 'advanced frog stand', it seems very hard to keep the arms completely straight when I rest my legs on my elbows.

slizzardman said:

Airness said:

Yeah but I think the traditional reps and sets for weights (for endurance) 15+ isn't true all the time for bodyweight movements, the reps for strength tend to be higher but then 20 reps is a bit high, I was thinking more like 12-15.

power, strength, and endurance aren't about rep numbers, those rep numbers just so happen to tend to put you near the correct set time lengths for certain training effects. It's about time under tension. If the muscles are working constantly for 1-20 seconds, you're going to get a power response. Your nervous system will become more efficient, and you will see strength gains because of that. If your sets last 20-40 seconds then you will get strength results, which means you will be experiencing myofibrillar hypertrophy. In layman's terms, there are going to be more actin and myosin strands in the muscle and so you willb e stronger. This adds minimal size. At 40-60 seconds you will be primarily adding size. This is sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, and it's literally the muscle cell increasing its fluid volume. This primarily adds size. From 60-90 seconds you are in the pure endurance zone. This set length really develops the muscular endurance, not strength so much. For these set lengths to mean anything, the set time has to be imposed by the resistance being too much for you somewhere in the given range. So if you do planche pushups and you can do them for a minute, but you stop at 30 seconds, you are not going to get strength out of that even though you are in the numerical range for strength. You did not fail in the 20-40 second range, you chose to stop. Choosing to stop doesn't mean anything. The end of the set has to be determined by the momentary failure of the muscles working for these times to translate to actual progress.

Obviously, as you approach one end of the time range for each training effect(power, strength, size, endurance) you will start to get a mixed training effect. It should be fairly obvious that if you fail at 38 seconds you are going to be gaining more size than if you fail at 24 seconds.

If you consider that typical reps take from 2-4 seconds to complete, at a 4 second repetition you would be doing 1-5 reps for power. Surprise! That's the traditional way of doing things. It just so happens that those rep ranges put the lifters in the correct time under tension range. In he same vein, 2 second reps would mean that 20 reps still puts you at the tail end of the strength range. You're moving into strength-endurance, which puts on a bit more size than maximal strength work, but hey, you're still getting a strong maximal strength effect as well.

*********** great response! Say hello to Charles Staley for me if you get the chance.

Brandon Green

slizzardman said:

Airness said:

Yeah but I think the traditional reps and sets for weights (for endurance) 15+ isn't true all the time for bodyweight movements, the reps for strength tend to be higher but then 20 reps is a bit high, I was thinking more like 12-15.

power, strength, and endurance aren't about rep numbers, those rep numbers just so happen to tend to put you near the correct set time lengths for certain training effects. It's about time under tension. If the muscles are working constantly for 1-20 seconds, you're going to get a power response. Your nervous system will become more efficient, and you will see strength gains because of that. If your sets last 20-40 seconds then you will get strength results, which means you will be experiencing myofibrillar hypertrophy. In layman's terms, there are going to be more actin and myosin strands in the muscle and so you willb e stronger. This adds minimal size. At 40-60 seconds you will be primarily adding size. This is sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, and it's literally the muscle cell increasing its fluid volume. This primarily adds size. From 60-90 seconds you are in the pure endurance zone. This set length really develops the muscular endurance, not strength so much. For these set lengths to mean anything, the set time has to be imposed by the resistance being too much for you somewhere in the given range. So if you do planche pushups and you can do them for a minute, but you stop at 30 seconds, you are not going to get strength out of that even though you are in the numerical range for strength. You did not fail in the 20-40 second range, you chose to stop. Choosing to stop doesn't mean anything. The end of the set has to be determined by the momentary failure of the muscles working for these times to translate to actual progress.

Obviously, as you approach one end of the time range for each training effect(power, strength, size, endurance) you will start to get a mixed training effect. It should be fairly obvious that if you fail at 38 seconds you are going to be gaining more size than if you fail at 24 seconds.

If you consider that typical reps take from 2-4 seconds to complete, at a 4 second repetition you would be doing 1-5 reps for power. Surprise! That's the traditional way of doing things. It just so happens that those rep ranges put the lifters in the correct time under tension range. In he same vein, 2 second reps would mean that 20 reps still puts you at the tail end of the strength range. You're moving into strength-endurance, which puts on a bit more size than maximal strength work, but hey, you're still getting a strong maximal strength effect as well.

********** Is going to failure a good idea? From what i understand if you can do a 5 rep max with a certain lift then you should be doing reps in the 1-3 range with multiple sets otherwise you might burnout the CNS?

Brandon Green

Blairbob said:

Umm, it's a viable way that's similar to having a spotter who just goes lighter and lighter on the spot over time.

He was probably already beastly strong to begin with.

************ I was just wondering whether there is any weight training exercices that supplement planche training?

Brandon Green

Some people like weighted dips like Jim from BeastSkills.

Blairbob said:

Some people like weighted dips like Jim from BeastSkills.

***********Would anything that strengthens the low back (back hypers or reverse hypers)

help?

Brandon Green

If that's your defiency, yes.

Bare in mind, unweighted reverse hypers are very easy.

Blairbob said:

If that's your defiency, yes.

Bare in mind, unweighted reverse hypers are very easy.

What about weighted hyperxtensions?

Brandon Green

Go for it. Coach S mentiones in the book, some of his athletes do this with 35-55lbs off a pommel horse being the equivalent of a 100lbs on a reverse hyper.

Yea, don't be afraid to go heavy. I do sets of 12 or so with 180 lbs on the hyper benches, so don't think you can't work up to some pretty extreme strength levels. I don't do them very often, but I think they're a good idea. I don't have a place to perform them at the moment I'll have to build something for that.

slizzardman said:

Airness said:

Yeah but I think the traditional reps and sets for weights (for endurance) 15+ isn't true all the time for bodyweight movements, the reps for strength tend to be higher but then 20 reps is a bit high, I was thinking more like 12-15.

power, strength, and endurance aren't about rep numbers, those rep numbers just so happen to tend to put you near the correct set time lengths for certain training effects. It's about time under tension. If the muscles are working constantly for 1-20 seconds, you're going to get a power response. Your nervous system will become more efficient, and you will see strength gains because of that. If your sets last 20-40 seconds then you will get strength results, which means you will be experiencing myofibrillar hypertrophy. In layman's terms, there are going to be more actin and myosin strands in the muscle and so you willb e stronger. This adds minimal size. At 40-60 seconds you will be primarily adding size. This is sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, and it's literally the muscle cell increasing its fluid volume. This primarily adds size. From 60-90 seconds you are in the pure endurance zone. This set length really develops the muscular endurance, not strength so much. For these set lengths to mean anything, the set time has to be imposed by the resistance being too much for you somewhere in the given range. So if you do planche pushups and you can do them for a minute, but you stop at 30 seconds, you are not going to get strength out of that even though you are in the numerical range for strength. You did not fail in the 20-40 second range, you chose to stop. Choosing to stop doesn't mean anything. The end of the set has to be determined by the momentary failure of the muscles working for these times to translate to actual progress.

Obviously, as you approach one end of the time range for each training effect(power, strength, size, endurance) you will start to get a mixed training effect. It should be fairly obvious that if you fail at 38 seconds you are going to be gaining more size than if you fail at 24 seconds.

If you consider that typical reps take from 2-4 seconds to complete, at a 4 second repetition you would be doing 1-5 reps for power. Surprise! That's the traditional way of doing things. It just so happens that those rep ranges put the lifters in the correct time under tension range. In he same vein, 2 second reps would mean that 20 reps still puts you at the tail end of the strength range. You're moving into strength-endurance, which puts on a bit more size than maximal strength work, but hey, you're still getting a strong maximal strength effect as well.

Technically, time under tension isn't the be all just like rep numbers aren't. Rep ranges are approximations just like TUT for sets is an approximation of how much stress/damage at X weight and at Y repetitions is doing to your muscles.

It's all about the load placed upon the muscles + the stress and damage you do to them that give you various effects.

1. Heavier weight with less TUT/less reps tends to give better strength & myofib results b/c of increased emphasis on CNS adaptations

2. some what heavy/moderate weight with moderate TUT/moderate reps tends to give good/moderate hypertrophy & some strength b/c of some CNS adaptations + maximizing muscular damage which is essential for sarco hypertrophy

3. Lighter weight with longer TUT/lots of reps gives some hypertrophy + mostly endurance because it's more metabolic (energy pathways) + some damage for hypertrophy if the load is heavy enough to cause such adaptations.

braindx said:

slizzardman said:

Airness said:

Yeah but I think the traditional reps and sets for weights (for endurance) 15+ isn't true all the time for bodyweight movements, the reps for strength tend to be higher but then 20 reps is a bit high, I was thinking more like 12-15.

power, strength, and endurance aren't about rep numbers, those rep numbers just so happen to tend to put you near the correct set time lengths for certain training effects. It's about time under tension. If the muscles are working constantly for 1-20 seconds, you're going to get a power response. Your nervous system will become more efficient, and you will see strength gains because of that. If your sets last 20-40 seconds then you will get strength results, which means you will be experiencing myofibrillar hypertrophy. In layman's terms, there are going to be more actin and myosin strands in the muscle and so you willb e stronger. This adds minimal size. At 40-60 seconds you will be primarily adding size. This is sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, and it's literally the muscle cell increasing its fluid volume. This primarily adds size. From 60-90 seconds you are in the pure endurance zone. This set length really develops the muscular endurance, not strength so much. For these set lengths to mean anything, the set time has to be imposed by the resistance being too much for you somewhere in the given range. So if you do planche pushups and you can do them for a minute, but you stop at 30 seconds, you are not going to get strength out of that even though you are in the numerical range for strength. You did not fail in the 20-40 second range, you chose to stop. Choosing to stop doesn't mean anything. The end of the set has to be determined by the momentary failure of the muscles working for these times to translate to actual progress.

Obviously, as you approach one end of the time range for each training effect(power, strength, size, endurance) you will start to get a mixed training effect. It should be fairly obvious that if you fail at 38 seconds you are going to be gaining more size than if you fail at 24 seconds.

If you consider that typical reps take from 2-4 seconds to complete, at a 4 second repetition you would be doing 1-5 reps for power. Surprise! That's the traditional way of doing things. It just so happens that those rep ranges put the lifters in the correct time under tension range. In he same vein, 2 second reps would mean that 20 reps still puts you at the tail end of the strength range. You're moving into strength-endurance, which puts on a bit more size than maximal strength work, but hey, you're still getting a strong maximal strength effect as well.

Technically, time under tension isn't the be all just like rep numbers aren't. Rep ranges are approximations just like TUT for sets is an approximation of how much stress/damage at X weight and at Y repetitions is doing to your muscles.

It's all about the load placed upon the muscles + the stress and damage you do to them that give you various effects.

1. Heavier weight with less TUT/less reps tends to give better strength & myofib results b/c of increased emphasis on CNS adaptations

2. some what heavy/moderate weight with moderate TUT/moderate reps tends to give good/moderate hypertrophy & some strength b/c of some CNS adaptations + maximizing muscular damage which is essential for sarco hypertrophy

3. Lighter weight with longer TUT/lots of reps gives some hypertrophy + mostly endurance because it's more metabolic (energy pathways) + some damage for hypertrophy if the load is heavy enough to cause such adaptations.

Yea, I didn't want to go into that, but I am glad you did. That's why I said that it's important that the TUT is limited by one's physical ability, and that the time by itself doesn't mean squat.

The intensity percentage( weight being moved as a percentage of 1 rep max) is also important, I know that's what you're saying with the heavy weight, but for those who are curious you have actin and myosin proteins, and titan proteins connecting the various sarcomeres to each other. The titan proteins connect directly from one sarcomere to the other and are extremely elastic. These are what provide most of your eccentric strength. They also take about 45 minutes to synthesize, which is considerably longer than any other protein. They are the largest protein in the body, the full chemical name is over 190,000 letters. Yea. Try saying THAT 5 times fast!

What really causes the need for longer rest between heavier workouts though is the junctophylans. They connect the sarcoplasmic reticulum to the cell membrane, and they degrade quickly during high intensity work. You are using more muscle fibers during the high intensity work and so while you do less total muscle damage than moderate intensity exercise with a much higher volume, you do much MORE damage to the junctophylans and the titan proteins. These are directly involved with contractile and eccentric strength, respectively, and that is why you get stronger more so than bigger when you are working near your current 1 rep maxes.

You do experience CNS adaptation in the beginning few weeks, but after that it's almost all physical restructuring of the muscle cells. When we say CNS adaptations, here's what we mean. Your motor units(the actual groups of muscle fibers that are connected to each nerve ending) become more efficient and start firing in sync. This produces more power. What does power mean? Well, it's force generated over a certain period of time. When your CNS starts telling a particular muscle to fire its motor units all at more or less the same instant, it is producing its maximum force very quickly. This transfers more force and generates more momentum, which allows you to move more physical mass.

Think about a power clean. You may be able to deadlift 400 lbs, but if you can't get it moving fast enough you'll never get it up to your shoulders. So you're strong enough, but not powerful enough. Athletes value power over strength, as far as priorities go. Increases in strength provide potential increases in power, and increases in power let you lift more, which lets you build more strength. They play off each other in a well structured training program.

cccp21 said:

***********Would anything that strengthens the low back (back hypers or reverse hypers)

help?

Brandon Green

Coach Sommer mentions on page 54 of the book:

"In addition, I have found that kettlebell/dumbbell swings are also an excellent supplement to planche training. This was something I discovered quite by accident; I used dumbbell swings to rehab the lower back of one of my athletes and after a 6-week period we found that he could now perform a solid straddle planche; where previously this had been beyond his reach. In retrospect, he had the shoulder girdle strength, but not the lower back strength necessary to reach full extension."

Some people also recommend dumbbell front raises and also another exercise that is also good for maltese training: lay on a bench and hold dumbbells at your side. Raise them with your arms straight until 45 degrees (palms facing up) and lower them back(some people say to lower below the horizontal level until 45 degrees as well and others say it's pointless...)

Blairbob said:

Some people like weighted dips like Jim from BeastSkills.

***********Has doing push ups on a stablity ball(hands on not feet) been helpful at all?

Brandon Green