V-sit question

Hi guys, I've been working on my V-sit lately focusing on locking the elbow, here's a picture:

I'm trying to understand why is it so hard on the triceps (at least at first), is it because the long head of the triceps not only extends the elbow but also acts as a shoulder extensors?

Is it right that this is rated with an A in the gymnastic code point? I can't find a list with the ratings of this skills.. 

Yes, that's true the long head of the triceps also acts as a shoulder extensor as well as adductor too.

Your V-sit is not bad. I think it's right rated at an A since it is still very easy, but some V-sits with the hips pushed out very far almost to Manna is pretty hard though.

I've always seen it as B. I think it's hard for your triceps simply because you have to extend your arms: Your arms would prefer to bend. Imagine an axis through your elbows, everything fixed in the V-sit position but no active arm extension: You would rotate forwards, your butt into the ground.

Unfortunately I have no good idea where your centre of mass is in the photo, so I can only give an extremely crude estimate: If the projection of your centre of mass onto your arm is half the length of your forearm away from you elbow, and there are only angles of 45° or 90° involved, each arm does a ~ 1/6*bodyweight  triceps extension. These I find hard.

Christoph said:

I've always seen it as B. I think it's hard for your triceps simply because you have to extend your arms: Your arms would prefer to bend. Imagine an axis through your elbows, everything fixed in the V-sit position but no active arm extension: You would rotate forwards, your butt into the ground.

 

Unfortunately I have no good idea where your centre of mass is in the photo, so I can only give an extremely crude estimate: If the projection of your centre of mass onto your arm is half the length of your forearm away from you elbow, and there are only angles of 45° or 90° involved, each arm does a ~ 1/6*bodyweight  triceps extension. These I find hard.

So it would be something like in the image. The triceps will extend the elbow moving the body as a whole upwards from one hinge (elbow joint) with the center of mass in front of that fulcrum.

That's a good illustration. The triceps prevent you to land in the position of the left hand side (in fact, the hip flexors also gave in a little bit there).

In my (severely limited) experience, rotating your palms (so that the fingers face backwards) makes the elbow locking feel more intuitive. Not easier, necessarily, just a little bit more natural. And although v-sits don't seem to be the right way to progress to a manna, I feel doing them this way will help when you start moving towards manna progressions. It will still be hard on your triceps, and much harder on your wrists, so don't do it this way unless your wrists are adequately prepared. I have also seen a lot of people do them on the knuckles, like the lady is doing, to the right of the forum page. 

SM3091 said:

In my (severely limited) experience, rotating your palms (so that the fingers face backwards) makes the elbow locking feel more intuitive. Not easier, necessarily, just a little bit more natural. And although v-sits don't seem to be the right way to progress to a manna, I feel doing them this way will help when you start moving towards manna progressions. It will still be hard on your triceps, and much harder on your wrists, so don't do it this way unless your wrists are adequately prepared. I have also seen a lot of people do them on the knuckles, like the lady is doing, to the right of the forum page. 

with palms backwards I find it quite harder. I think she's doing it on her knukles because she's not depressing enough the shoulders, and her butt would touch the ground  

Flavio85 said:

with palms backwards I find it quite harder. I think she's doing it on her knukles because she's not depressing enough the shoulders, and her butt would touch the ground

By palms backwards, I assume you  mean fingers facing backwards? If so, yes, this is much harder on the bicep tendon if you're new to that hand placement. But getting used to it would be beneficial, because if you ever choose to work towards a manna, it might be nice to have some amount of strength in that fingers backward position.  You might be onto something with the lack of shoulder depression. But have seen lots of gymnasts do it that way on their floor routines. No idea why.

My basic idea behind trying to incorporate that position is that it is recommended with everything. Ring support: rings turned out. Ring handstands: rings turned out. Ring planche: Most gymnasts do it with the palms forward. All these positions have one thing in common: We are striving to get the thumb on the outside rather than the inside (sorry, can't think of a technical way to describe this). Not to say that being able to hold static positions like this on the floor would directly help anything on rings, but I'd like to think there is some carryover. Not an expert, just my gut.

SM3091 said:

By palms backwards, I assume you  mean fingers facing backwards? If so, yes, this is much harder on the bicep tendon if you're new to that hand placement. But getting used to it would be beneficial, because if you ever choose to work towards a manna, it might be nice to have some amount of strength in that fingers backward position.  You might be onto something with the lack of shoulder depression. But have seen lots of gymnasts do it that way on their floor routines. No idea why.

 

My basic idea behind trying to incorporate that position is that it is recommended with everything. Ring support: rings turned out. Ring handstands: rings turned out. Ring planche: Most gymnasts do it with the palms forward. All these positions have one thing in common: We are striving to get the thumb on the outside rather than the inside (sorry, can't think of a technical way to describe this). Not to say that being able to hold static positions like this on the floor would directly help anything on rings, but I'd like to think there is some carryover. Not an expert, just my gut.

I started to train it with fingers facing backwards, with some consistency I hope I'll get it. The thumb on the outside requires shoulder external rotation (probably more infraspinatus involvement). Do you feel it different on your triceps?

Flavio85 said:

I started to train it with fingers facing backwards, with some consistency I hope I'll get it. The thumb on the outside requires shoulder external rotation (probably more infraspinatus involvement). Do you feel it different on your triceps?

Shoulder external rotation, yes. But the majority of the strain is felt in the biceps tendon. I feel more intense contraction (and cramping) in the triceps. I don't think this is a direct consequence of teh palm placement. Rather, that position, enables a better lockout for me (now that I don't feel the strain in the bicep tendon anymore) and this leads to a stronger contraction of the triceps. It might be worth mentioning that my elbows significatly hyperextend. 

SM3091 said:

By palms backwards, I assume you  mean fingers facing backwards? If so, yes, this is much harder on the bicep tendon if you're new to that hand placement. But getting used to it would be beneficial, because if you ever choose to work towards a manna, it might be nice to have some amount of strength in that fingers backward position.  You might be onto something with the lack of shoulder depression. But have seen lots of gymnasts do it that way on their floor routines. No idea why.

 

My basic idea behind trying to incorporate that position is that it is recommended with everything. Ring support: rings turned out. Ring handstands: rings turned out. Ring planche: Most gymnasts do it with the palms forward. All these positions have one thing in common: We are striving to get the thumb on the outside rather than the inside (sorry, can't think of a technical way to describe this). Not to say that being able to hold static positions like this on the floor would directly help anything on rings, but I'd like to think there is some carryover. Not an expert, just my gut.

Hands backwards for the manna and V-sit does not put more stress on the biceps since you are pushing in the opposite direction of where the biceps are facing. It is not like hands back planche.

B1214N said:

Hands backwards for the manna and V-sit does not put more stress on the biceps since you are pushing in the opposite direction of where the biceps are facing. It is not like hands back planche.

Good point. Like I said, it was a gut feeling. I do think that a certain degree of bicep tendon (again, not the bicep, the bicep tendon) conditioning is required to hold those positions. Even with support holds on rings, I remember I had sharp pain along my tendons when I first started out, even though my shoulders were not ahead of my wrists. Locking elbows out is not an intuitive movement for any other sport, and for an absolute beginner like myself, V-sit and manna progressions do affect the bicep tendon. 

Not challenging your expertise though. Your input is appreciated.

For sure, RTO supports and RTO L-sits stress the biceps tendons since they are still protecting the elbows from being over-extended despite no forward lean. V-sits and mannas on the other hand have a slight lean backwards where the triceps are working hard to keep the elbows locked.

B1214N said:

For sure, RTO supports and RTO L-sits stress the biceps tendons since they are still protecting the elbows from being over-extended despite no forward lean. V-sits and mannas on the other hand have a slight lean backwards where the triceps are working hard to keep the elbows locked and the force vectors no longer try to over-extend the elbows.

That's interesting. For some reason though, I find that my elbows always have a tendency to overextend when doing any kind of V-sit progressions. I do have quite a bit of hyperextension present in my elbows, so  I think once the elbows go beyond 180 degrees, my body weight is acting to emphasize the extension. I can't explain it, but if you look at the image to the right, you can kind of see how the weight is pushing the elbows in to extension. Or maybe I'm just doing something way off. 

I don't know about your case, but when I first tried to do V-sits I had to fight a little to keep my arms locked since they want to bend and I have quite a bit of hyperextension in my elbows too. I feel like the triceps and not the shoulder extension are the ones keeping the elbows locked in a V-sit/manna whereas they do not need to fight to keep the arms locked in a planche since your shoulders are pushing forward. Triceps extension only comes to play in a planche when doing push-ups whereas your triceps are statically extending in a V-sit/manna. I could be wrong though, but this is my theory and from what I feel is happening when doing them.

I have attached an image of me attempting a v-sit, the work required of your triceps will depend a lot on how far forward you are pushing your hips and your forward fold.  Since this balance move requires both strength and flexibility remember to work both.  A lot of overhead or front lever type straight arm strength moves send the stress directly into your shoulders or lats but this type of move is a great way to get in some tricep work.

B1214N said:

Hands backwards for the manna and V-sit does not put more stress on the biceps since you are pushing in the opposite direction of where the biceps are facing. It is not like hands back planche.

Actually beginners, with their relatively tight and weak biceps, tend to feel enormous stretch in the elbow with fingers back and the hips elevated.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Thanks for clearing things up Coach.

B1214N said:

Thanks for clearing things up Coach.

No problem. The extreme tightness of their elbows surprised me as well when I first began working with adult beginners.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

No problem. The extreme tightness of their elbows surprised me as well when I first began working with adult beginners.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I also noticed this. I found that active release therapy helped this quite a bit on people who were willing to get it done. I'm sure other massage methods would also help quite a bit.

I had tightness around that area aswell. What worked for me was standing next to a wall, so that your oblique is facing the wall. Raise your arm to a 90 degree fashion, place your hands on the wall with fingers facing downwards. If your very tight, this will be brutal.