Hollow position in push up movement.

Hi guys, I'm Thiago from Italy.

From the age of 22 I've always trained for maximal strenght with PL method but, in the last 3 mounths I've decided to add some simple calistenich movements into my training: pushup and pullup. 

I've a question about the shoulder and blades position in the pushup movement.

Do I have to set them like in the bench press or do I have to take an hollow position!? 

About the hollow position, what is the difference between the position taken into the powerlift?



Thanks, and sorry for my bad english.

 

Hollow position for pushups for greater gains and greater transfer to harder GST elements.

The hollow position is completely the opposite of the bench press in powerlifting.  Bench pressing is done with an arch (anterior pelvic tilt to minimize distance weight travels and scapula retracted the whole time to help create a stable base against bench).  Hollow is done with a posterior pelvic tilt (to help engage the glutes and abs) and is protracted at the top (for serratus anterior activation and allow scapula to be in a better position to help the rotator cuff muscles.)

alan tseng said:

Hollow position for pushups for greater gains and greater transfer to harder GST elements.

 

The hollow position is completely the opposite of the bench press in powerlifting.  Bench pressing is done with an arch (anterior pelvic tilt to minimize distance weight travels and scapula retracted the whole time to help create a stable base against bench).  Hollow is done with a posterior pelvic tilt (to help engage the glutes and abs) and is protracted at the top (for serratus anterior activation and allow scapula to be in a better position to help the rotator cuff muscles.)

nice comparison. the only 2 things they have on common is the scapulas depression.

Thanks. 

So, now the question is: where can i find some sources to learn doing the hollow position because, for me, it's very difficult to learn it coming from a powerlifting background. 

If i can, I'd like to ask you another thing: I've a doubt regarding the pullup progression: my weight is too high (100 kg, but I'm on diet) so I can do only one pullup correctly. I think I can use an elastic to create some volume and then, never use it. Is it correct or, using an elastic, I will corrupt the motorial scheme!?

Thanks for the answer guy, you are cool!

 

Thiago said:

Thanks. 

So, now the question is: where can i find some sources to learn doing the hollow position because, for me, it's very difficult to learn it coming from a powerlifting background. 

 

If i can, I'd like to ask you another thing: I've a doubt regarding the pullup progression: my weight is too high (100 kg, but I'm on diet) so I can do only one pullup correctly. I think I can use an elastic to create some volume and then, never use it. Is it correct or, using an elastic, I will corrupt the motorial scheme!?

Thanks for the answer guy, you are cool!

 

1: Scapula shrugs are what you need. For information on how to execute them properly buy foundation 1 or search for videos on youtube.

2: You should immediately step away from pull up training. Your additional weight will strain your elbows and rotator cuffs putting them at risk of injury. Lose some weight and start row variations first to build them strength foundation needed for pull ups. If you want to learn more, again; buy foundation 1.

Thanks.

Thiago said:

Thanks. 

So, now the question is: where can i find some sources to learn doing the hollow position because, for me, it's very difficult to learn it coming from a powerlifting background. 

 

If i can, I'd like to ask you another thing: I've a doubt regarding the pullup progression: my weight is too high (100 kg, but I'm on diet) so I can do only one pullup correctly. I think I can use an elastic to create some volume and then, never use it. Is it correct or, using an elastic, I will corrupt the motorial scheme!?

Thanks for the answer guy, you are cool!

I already told you how to do hollow position, posterior pelvic tilt + protraction at top.

What do you mean pull-up progression? Are you talking about the RC in Foundation? If so just follow it as it is

I'm not sure how long you've been into GST, but initially the words confused me quite a bit, so here they are. If you know this, then just skip to the next paragraph. 
Scapula:

protraction - getting the shoulder blades away from each other (Detailed below)

retraction - bringing the shoulder blades together (As you would do for a bench)

elevation - taking the shoulders 'up', as in towards the ceiling when standing straight

depression - taking the shoulders 'down' towards the pelvis 

Here's how I learnt how to hold a hollow position:

Lie down on the floor and try to get an idea of what a posterior pelvic tilt is. I do this by squeezing the abs and the glutes. The objective is to flatten the back. If you lie down on the floor, many people tend to have a natural arch in the lumbar spine. For a hollow position this needs to be removed. Try and touch all of your lower back to the floor. Once you understand what this feels like, now try and raise your legs. If you have never done this before, you will likely have some trouble holding this postion with your legs fully extended (remember, glutes need to be squeezed throughout). So reduce the difficulty by bending at the knees.

Now that the lumbar region has been addressed, move to the thoracic region. You want to protract and depress your scapulae. For protraction, think about reaching for the ceiling as intensely as possible. If retraction is described as "squeezing the back", think of protraction as the opposite of that. Lastly, I like to tuck the chin in as it gives me the feeling of a complete position.

This article is about the planche lean but it describes a hollow position along with some pictures. Hope it helps: https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/5959-scapula-position-for-basic-and-static-exercises/

Regarding the pull up progression, start with rows. If you have rings, ring rows will be a good way to begin. If not, the put a barbell low in the squat rack and use that for rows. You can make this more difficult by elevating the legs. As you get better at a hollow position, it really helps to do rows while holding a strict hollow. These are more difficult than they seem, especially if you are new to this for of exercise. 

I am by no means an expert, and I implore the more experienced members of the group to weigh in and correct me wherever I have faltered. Sorry if the post was too long, I really do need to work on being more concise. 

Freshpro said:

...

2: You should immediately step away from pull up training. Your additional weight will strain your elbows and rotator cuffs putting them at risk of injury.

This doesn't sound right. I have never known people to be injured from attempting basic pullups. Maybe, if he was completely sedentary his entire life and he was already middle-aged, then maybe he would injure himself. If he does pullup training (with GTG technique), I believe his body will quickly adapt and any anomalous stress he feels should quickly disappear after just a few training sessions.

From my understanding, pullup is a fundamental human movement almost like the squat. Would you tell a physically fit (he trained PL'ing) person to not squat because of risk of damage to knees? No, because squatting is beneficial to the knees and strengthens it, just like pullups should do for the elbows, even if someone has never done them before. Maybe if he was injured or possessed a physical handicap of some sort, then should advise against such movements, though I do not believe that this is the case here.

Being 100kg+ does not mean someone should not do pullup training.

Just to make a point, my father (currently at age 60) did several consecutive pullups earlier this year, after not doing any strength training for several decades, and he weighs more than 100kg. 

Also to OP, do the pushups in protracted form.

SM3091 said:

Here's how I learnt how to hold a hollow position:

Lie down on the floor and try to get an idea of what a posterior pelvic tilt is. I do this by squeezing the abs and the glutes. The objective is to flatten the back. If you lie down on the floor, many people tend to have a natural arch in the lumbar spine. For a hollow position this needs to be removed. Try and touch all of your lower back to the floor. Once you understand what this feels like, now try and raise your legs. If you have never done this before, you will likely have some trouble holding this postion with your legs fully extended (remember, glutes need to be squeezed throughout). So reduce the difficulty by bending at the knees.

 

 

Posterior pelvic tilt causes the lumbar to flex, but lumbar spine is not posterior pelvic tilt.  Don't simply squeeze the abs/glutes and try to touch your lower back to the floor that is lumbar flexion.  Posterior pelvic tilt is literally tilting your pelvic until the lumbar spine is straight.  What posterior pelvic tilt is doing is that it contracts the abs/glute muscles while lengthening the hip flexors

Sorry, mistake in the way I phrased things. I definitely did not mean to convey the idea the the lower back should be placed under flexion. It is very important to understand the difference between low back flexion and the hollow position, which Alan has stated in the last line. I'm not too sure about the lengthing of the hip flexors, but he knows better. The reason I made a connection between PPT and the lumbar spine was because he stated he has a background in power lifting. During squats, if one goes below parallel (usually), there is something people call a butt wink, which is the posterior pelvic tilt we are talking about here. While it is undesirable in squatting, a controlled version of that is what is being emulated here. 

Alan, I'm curious, did you recently change your user name from something else? I see you have > 500 posts but can only remember noticing your user name over the past month or so in which I've seen it everywhere.

-MR said:

Alan, I'm curious, did you recently change your user name from something else? I see you have > 500 posts but can only remember noticing your user name over the past month or so in which I've seen it everywhere.

old username was Hmms but one day was fiddling settings and changed it unintentionally to be honest

Ahh, makes sense now. I definitely recognize your old user name

ForzaCavaliere said:

This doesn't sound right. I have never known people to be injured from attempting basic pullups. Maybe, if he was completely sedentary his entire life and he was already middle-aged, then maybe he would injure himself. If he does pullup training (with GTG technique), I believe his body will quickly adapt and any anomalous stress he feels should quickly disappear after just a few training sessions.

From my understanding, pullup is a fundamental human movement almost like the squat. Would you tell a physically fit (he trained PL'ing) person to not squat because of risk of damage to knees? No, because squatting is beneficial to the knees and strengthens it, just like pullups should do for the elbows, even if someone has never done them before. Maybe if he was injured or possessed a physical handicap of some sort, then should advise against such movements, though I do not believe that this is the case here.

 

Being 100kg+ does not mean someone should not do pullup training.

 

Just to make a point, my father (currently at age 60) did several consecutive pullups earlier this year, after not doing any strength training for several decades, and he weighs more than 100kg. 

 

Also to OP, do the pushups in protracted form.

There are a number of reasons why pull up training CAN lead to injuries; inadequade flexibility, bad movement patterns, unconditioned connective tissue and joints and bad form. Add 20+ kg and you will have an individual doing a heavily weighted exercise for very few reps; one that he is not even capable of performing more than 1 of. I cannot tell exactly how OP will respond to pull up training, and wether or not his shoulders have any "leaks" but why take any chances? There is a reason why foundation has row variations before pull up training. I think my recommendation is fully justified. If not please explain to me why it is not, I will listen.

Freshpro said:

There are a number of reasons why pull up training CAN lead to injuries; inadequade flexibility, bad movement patterns, unconditioned connective tissue and joints and bad form. Add 20+ kg and you will have an individual doing a heavily weighted exercise for very few reps; one that he is not even capable of performing more than 1 of. I cannot tell exactly how OP will respond to pull up training, and wether or not his shoulders have any "leaks" but why take any chances? There is a reason why foundation has row variations before pull up training. I think my recommendation is fully justified. If not please explain to me why it is not, I will listen.

This is true. A lot of people do pullups by pulling their arms to their side as opposed to pulling ''behind'' the bar. With an inadequately prepared shoulder, this can definitely lead to shoulder issues and even nerve impingement in some cases. This risk increases further if the person is a little on the heavier side. You can consider pullups to be a primal movement like squatting. But it is amazing how many people squat wrong all the while thinking they are doing a splendid job at it. Years of sitting in chairs etc leads to mobility issues in the hip flexors and ankles, and people suddenly jump into squatting, in the name of fitness, without addressing these mobility issues. So if it were me, I would tell someone to stop squatting because more often than not, the way people squat IS bad for the knees. 

Another thing I want to add is that while directly starting pullups may not injure you, it increases the risk of degradation which builds up over the course of many years. The whole point of this forum (in my understanding) is to understand these movements well and to lengthen the life of your physical body. You can build a house without a good foundation (heh, get it?) but you increase the risk of the supports failing at some point. Besides, if you really are strong enough to do pullups, you would likely breeze through the steps mentioned before the pullup. So you've got nothing to lose right? Taking a step back now will allow you to keep moving forward much longer.

Freshpro said:

There are a number of reasons why pull up training CAN lead to injuries; inadequade flexibility, bad movement patterns, unconditioned connective tissue and joints and bad form. Add 20+ kg and you will have an individual doing a heavily weighted exercise for very few reps; one that he is not even capable of performing more than 1 of. I cannot tell exactly how OP will respond to pull up training, and wether or not his shoulders have any "leaks" but why take any chances? There is a reason why foundation has row variations before pull up training. I think my recommendation is fully justified. If not please explain to me why it is not, I will listen.

Actually I do believe I am at error here. Firstly, I was put off because you told OP to "immediately back off" from pullup training. I re-read your comment, looks like you were just being cautious. I agree completely, rows are suitable preparation for pullups. However, my comment was aimed more towards arguing that although rows are good, doing pullups GTG method would work quite well too, and telling him to back off from pullup training to prepare via rows as if it is the only option for doing it injury free is incorrect in my opinion. 

ForzaCavaliere said:

Actually I do believe I am at error here. Firstly, I was put off because you told OP to "immediately back off" from pullup training. I re-read your comment, looks like you were just being cautious. I agree completely, rows are suitable preparation for pullups. However, my comment was aimed more towards arguing that although rows are good, doing pullups GTG method would work quite well too, and telling him to back off from pullup training to prepare via rows as if it is the only option for doing it injury free is incorrect in my opinion. 

"Immediately back off" has a stronger effect than "please be nice to stop", one should not have the chance of choosing the lesser training method without any good reasons to do so. I agree that pull ups are not "dangerous" in itself, one might achieve fine results by just doing those alone and maybe just play around with them, but there is a better way - and the better way should always stand out as the thing one should follow. If we add the fact that OP can only do one pull up (we have not even checked his form yet) and the fact that he is overweight - doing pull ups GTG method is not a viable option for him, in my opinion.