Foundation 1 and Handstand 1-need them both at once?

From everything I have read here, though I have not seen it explicitly stated it appears to me as if F1 and H1 are really sort of a package that should be done together. Is this true? Or is F1 a stand-alone and then H1 added down the line, after some time working with F1?

Thanks

Ideally you'd begin both at the same time. Each can be worked individually but there is synergy between them. F1 is more of a general strength training program. H1 teaches the handstand, but also includes many wrist and shoulder mobility exercises and bodyline drills that will improve your progress through the F series and general athletic ability.

 I have been working on handstands a bit already, up to about 1 minute steady hold next to wall with some intermittent light toe taps on it for stability. But I can certainly use more wrist and shoulder mobility!!!

GeoffeyLevens said:

. But I can certainly use more wrist and shoulder mobility!!!

You'll love it!

As Joshua Slocum stated F1 and H1 should be started at the same time. However F1 and H1 can be started separately, if funds are tight for you at the moment you can purchase one or the other.

Thank you all

Hi, Should we do F1 and H1 training together on each workout day, or do them seperately on different days ?

ucanadam said:

Hi, Should we do F1 and H1 training together on each workout day, or do them separately on different days ?

Carefully reread the course material for your options for developing your weekly routine. Some options include both F1 and H1 on the same day while others are F1 on one day and H1 on another day. Choose the option that best suits your needs and available time. 

If you want to advance in the foundation series its important to work H1. H1 is a prerequisite of F4.... so it is a good idea to start working on it sooner than later.

Joshua Slocum said:

 H1 teaches the handstand, but also includes many wrist and shoulder mobility exercises and bodyline drills that will improve your progress through the F series and general athletic ability.

How and in what way could handstand drills improve general athletic ability? I understand that handstand work gives you healthy shoulders but it's just a small part of the general athletic ability.

I asked this question because I'd read about it in several  places including building the gymnastic body, how handstand work has a tremendous carryover to other athletic disciplines but it seems to me that there are many athletic disciplines that won't benefit significantly from strong and flexible shoulders that handstand work develops, soccer, running and sprinting for example.

My question could be even more general , what are the benefits of training the shoulders for a person who doesn't need a strong upper body in everyday life? As I understand it ALL people need strong legs to carry them from point a to point b and to run and jump. but really strong arms are not required for most people today as we live in an information based world and most jobs don't require any significant level of strength in your upper body.

I love training my upper body and handstands. But how could I convince my nonathletic friends that they should do it too?  or on those days when life gets in the way (problems at work etc.) and my motivation wavers what reasons should I give to myself that I should stick with my routine and not abandon it in favour of doing other more "important" things?

athleticandrey said:

How and in what way could handstand drills improve general athletic ability? I understand that handstand work gives you healthy shoulders but it's just a small part of the general athletic ability.

I asked this question because I'd read about it in several different places including building the gymnastic body, how handstand work has a tremendous carryover to other athletic disciplines but it seems to me that there are many athletic disciplines that won't benefit significantly from strong and flexible shoulders that handstand work develops, soccer, running and sprinting for example.

My question could be even more general , what are the benefits of training the shoulders for a person who doesn't need a strong upper body in everyday life? As I understand it ALL people need strong legs to carry them from point a to point b and to run and jump. but really strong arms are not required for most people today as we live in an information based world and most jobs don't require any significant level of strength in your upper body.

I love training my upper body and handstands. But how could I convince my nonathletic friends that they should do it too?  or on those days when life gets in the way (problems at work etc.) and my motivation wavers what reasons should I give to myself that I should stick with my routine and not abandon it in favour of doing other more "important" things?

You should more see handstands as learning difficult coordination and correct body position being upside-down. For a more elaborate answer I hope some more experienced guys will help you out.

athleticandrey said:

How and in what way could handstand drills improve general athletic ability? I understand that handstand work gives you healthy shoulders but it's just a small part of the general athletic ability.

Well, that depends on how you define "general athletic ability". Nearly all athletic activities involve using the shoulders, so I'm not sure what makes you think that strong, healthy shoulders is a "small part" of general athletic ability. For example, swimming, throwing, sprinting, tumbling, powerlifting and climbing all require or are augmented by strong, healthy shoulders. 

Beyond that, good handstand training also develops a lot of proprioception and body control. Proprioception and body control are useful everywhere. Proprioception is the sense that tells you where your limbs and joints are; control then lets you put your limbs and joints where you want them. 

And finally, the "meta-skill" of learning a complex movement is invaluable for any athletic endeavor. Knowing how to break down a complex skill into its component parts, analyze what's going on, what's not going so well, and how it can be bettered, and then put that knowledge to use in performing and improving the movement: that's something useful for any athletic activity. 

Joshua Slocum said:

 

Beyond that, good handstand training also develops a lot of proprioception and body control. Proprioception and body control are useful everywhere. Proprioception is the sense that tells you where your limbs and joints are; control then lets you put your limbs and joints where you want them. 

 

 

I see that makes sense, but handstand develops body control and proprioception in a very specific and unusual position. it's not obvious that the body control that you develop for that particular position would transfer to other positions like where you're standing on your feet.

Looks like there was even a study done on the transfer of body control in the handstand position to upright standing postures:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304394004000278

I understand why handstand is perhaps the most important skill for gymnasts to develop as gymnasts pass through the handstand position very often when  performing their routines but most people and even professional athletes probably don't need to develop body control in the handstand position since they're not likely to pass through that position while engaging in their sport or in their daily lives.

athleticandrey said:

I see that makes sense, but handstand develops body control and proprioception in a very specific and unusual position. it's not obvious that the body control that you develop for that particular position would transfer to other positions like where you're standing on your feet.

Looks like there was even a study done on the transfer of body control in the handstand position to upright standing postures:

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304394004000278

 

I understand why handstand is perhaps the most important skill for gymnasts to develop as gymnasts pass through the handstand position very often when  performing their routines but most people and even professional athletes probably don't need to develop body control in the handstand position since they're not likely to pass through that position while engaging in their sport or in their daily lives.

Let me clarify what I mean by body control. I'm not talking about something dynamic, like balancing. I'm talking about the ability to adjust the positions of very specific parts of the body individually. E.g. tilting your pelvis, hollowing your thoracic spine, or elevating your scapula. Proprioception is the ability to sense the position and orientation of your body parts, and body control is the ability to change them. 

That's an awesome article; thanks for posting it! 

The authors compared elite gymnasts' performance in three poses: balancing on two hands, balancing on one foot, and balancing on two feet. What they found is that, among elite gymnasts, performance in handstand balance was not the dominant factor in predicting steadiness in the other two positions. In this case, "steadiness" was defined by the authors as the mean speed of the subject's center of mass. There are a few issues with this study's conclusions (their sample is composes solely of 15 gymnasts, all at an 'elite' level - so we don't know how those gymnasts' balance compare to untrained people, or to people with handstand training but no gymnastics training, or to people with some but not a lot of handstand training), but the real issue here is that all they're measuring is how stable a person's balance is.

What you'd expect from someone with good body awareness and control would be the ability to more rapidly learn complex movements and skills. To measure that effect, you'd want to have a study where you take some people who have no athletic background, some with an atheletic background but no handstand/gymnastic experience, and then some with handstand/gymnastic experience. Then you'd measure their handstand abilities, and then you'd see how quickly and how well they were able to learn various athletic tasks they hadn't been trained in before. 

Now, this doesn't mean that handstands will give every athlete the best bang for their buck in terms of training effort. Certainly for a gymnast they are of paramount importance. But there are other ways of developing proprioception and body control, and if your sport doesn't involve much shoulder girdle strength or control, then developing those won't be of much benefit to you either.