Jefferson Curls for people who can't sit straight

After sometime doing this exercise, I noticed I was able to reach lower and lower with my hands (hands to the ground now). But I nearly always got some back pain (even doing it with 3kg only).

I watched this vídeo that showed some really nice anatomy for the compression stretch.

From what I understood, until one can bend over 90 degrees from hip only, one shouldn't be bending the spine nor loading it, but stretching from a laid back (straight back to the floor) and using straps.

What's your take on aproaching this exercise when hip mobility is still lacking?

Maaaan, this is exactly the same problem I got, I am stiff like a piece of wood.

I hope there is really some exercise for us...

(Same for a split)

EDIT:

I found the second video

but you have to login to see the complete one but when you stop at 00:34 you can see the progressions, that what I will try from today, good luck!

All good, but I find it a bit misleading.

It seems to suggest that the problem comes from seated stretches and those should be avoided.

To me the problem is not this or that exercise, is the fact people often doesn't stretch hamstrings using their hips, but relying on spine and chest instead.

I don't train much seated stretches anyway, but if you can isolate the correct section of your body to act onto, I don't see why you should avoid seated ones...

I think that's the point, Maolu.  Certainly seated stretches aren't a problem, only that they make it easier to flex from the spine instead of the pelvis.  If you can cue yourself to keep the back straight they're just fine.  I like the concept, though, that until your hamstrings can give you more than 90 degrees, you've no business training the pike stretch.  

SLY said:

Maaaan, this is exactly the same problem I got, I am stiff like a piece of wood.

I hope there is really some exercise for us...

(Same for a split)

 

EDIT:

 

I found the second video

 

but you have to login to see the complete one but when you stop at 00:34 you can see the progressions, that what I will try from today, good luck!

I hope it helps. It may or may not be the hamstrings that's limiting pelvic movement. It may as well be lack of coordination or some other link on the posterior chain. But there's only one sure way to know it, right? =)

maolu said:

All good, but I find it a bit misleading.

It seems to suggest that the problem comes from seated stretches and those should be avoided.

 

To me the problem is not this or that exercise, is the fact people often doesn't stretch hamstrings using their hips, but relying on spine and chest instead.

I don't train much seated stretches anyway, but if you can isolate the correct section of your body to act onto, I don't see why you should avoid seated ones...

I totally agree with you on bending on the spine. I'm overly guilt of it! And also, I'm on the same page with proper proprioception and not blaming the exercise instead of poor execution.

However, there's something special about Jefferson Curl: you HAVE to bend at the spine first. Later on, you uncoil it on the last part of the descent. So I guess it may be troublesome to start Jefferson Curls before posterior chain allows for 90+ degree bend on hips, as you'll go all the way down - and loaded - uncurling the spine. It may carry some risk until you develop a proper baseline for decente form, as happens with all of F and H elements.

MT Nordic said:

I think that's the point, Maolu.  Certainly seated stretches aren't a problem, only that they make it easier to flex from the spine instead of the pelvis.  If you can cue yourself to keep the back straight they're just fine.  I like the concept, though, that until your hamstrings can give you more than 90 degrees, you've no business training the pike stretch.  

I found it intriguing too. I'm trying to figure out what to do with JCs, as they usually put some strain on my back.

If 3kg is putting a strain on your back, lighten the load until you find the weight that doesn't.  It is possible that you will find the weight of your torso load enough in the beginning.

It is also possible that you will need to gradually increase the ROM on these.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I think you can continue working JC's as they are really working a bunch of other stuff than just the hamstrings.  Be cautious to curl one vertebrae at a time and not be straining for extra reach from the back.  The distance to stretch should come naturally with time.  Use a light weight if needed and advance slowly.  You should already be past 90 degrees by the time you're at JC's, because the PE1iM will have you there.  If you're not there, you should probably go back to MN/PE1 until you get the mobility mastered.  

Thanks a lot, Coach. But how is JC partial supposed to be?

Best damn video ever!

I think if you've mastered windmills, your hamstrings should be prepared to handle jefferson curls. I can touch my toes with my wrists, but I can still feel it in the hamstrings on windmills (granted I need to reach way back).

Anze Merh said:

I think if you've mastered windmills, your hamstrings should be prepared to handle jefferson curls.

I don't think so, because windmills are the half way, it's like sitting on the floor with straight back and JC is like a pike stretch at the end so a lot harder.

I can do the windmills with acceptable form but JC no chance I get my hands to the middle of my shins and that's the end...

Even as a kid I couldn't go any further I think I will never master JC because I stretch regularly and didn't get results it's like it were adjusted in my genes or something "until here and not further".

SLY said:

I don't think so, because windmills are the half way, it's like sitting on the floor with straight back and JC is like a pike stretch at the end so a lot harder.

I can do the windmills with acceptable form but JC no chance I get my hands to the middle of my shins and that's the end...

 

Even as a kid I couldn't go any further I think I will never master JC because I stretch regularly and didn't get results it's like it were adjusted in my genes or something "until here and not further".

It has been my experience too that mastery of windmills takes you to about 90 degrees at the hip (ie, sitting on the floor with a straight, vertical back). Since JC's are the next progression and it would seem that their primary purpose is to develop a better pike, it follows that mastery of JC's would demand greater hamstring flexibility, so you're probably going to be starting out with less than the desired ROM. That said, I'm surprised that you can master windmills yet only get your hands to the middle of your shins in JC's. A video or two would certainly shed some light on it.

Like you I have always had very tight hamstrings. In the past any attempts at stretching them had borne little fruit, which in retrospect I believe was because the load I was able to put them under in passive stretching simply was not enough for such a large, tight muscle group, and in active stretching my agonist muscles would quickly tire. I've come to the conclusion recently that, for me, loaded stretching is definitely the best medicine. It has taken me a long time to begin to reap the benefits though, since both windmills and JC's demand a baseline degree of mobility in other structures before you can target the hamstrings. It was about nine months before I had enough shoulder mobility and lat/oblique flexibility to perform windmills correctly. Then with JC's it took a couple of months to build up my spinal strength so I could handle a useful amount of weight, while at the same time fighting against my tight calves. Only recently have I started to feel a deep stretch in my hamstrings, leaving me sore for several days afterwards. For the record, I can get the bar down to floor level. Rather than trying to reach as low as possible, my favourite cue for the bottom of the movement is to "fold in half", ie pull my belly button towards the top of my thighs.

SLY said:

I don't think so, because windmills are the half way, it's like sitting on the floor with straight back and JC is like a pike stretch at the end so a lot harder.

I can do the windmills with acceptable form but JC no chance I get my hands to the middle of my shins and that's the end...

Even as a kid I couldn't go any further I think I will never master JC because I stretch regularly and didn't get results it's like it were adjusted in my genes or something "until here and not further".

Windmills should be considerably more ROM than sitting on the floor with your back straight. If you watch the demo video again you will see that the athlete is reaching far back between his legs with his arm and his side is pretty much touching his thigh. That would be more like the equivalent of sitting in a straddle (though not a very wide one) and laying your shoulder/oblique on the same side thigh, not sitting up straight.

Jefferson Curls and Windmills stretch slightly different muscles though, that may account for your lack of ROM in the JC's even if you have indeed demonstrated mastery in Windmills (assuming you have, which I agree you should post a video of to be sure). Windmills stretch the inner hamstrings (Semimembranosis and Semitendonosis) and the QL, Obliques, Lats and other lateral spinal flexors (as well as the forward spinal extensors). JC's on the other hand stretch more of the outer hamstrings (Biceps Femoris), and the spinal extensors much more intensely. So it may just be that you are very tight in one of these muscles.

When you say you get some back pain, where are you getting it?

I get back pain in the lower-right area. My glutes are a little lazy and that puts stress on the si joint but it feels much better when I take care to keep all the muscles engaged.

I rewatched the video and you are right, the athlete go a little bit further than just "sitting straight".

Better said for me acceptable form

I can't go down that much, so no mastery for me.

Anyway Mana was never a goal for me but training it though as well.

I just wanted to point out that for JC you have to go much further down.

I don't see perfectation in any iMs with hamstring flexibility requirements in the future for my self.

I even tried several youtube videos with relaxation, myofascial etc technics, but with no results.

I am just damned in this case xD

The most videos for flexibility are those where you are must be able to start at a very experienced point.

I don't saw a video where they show how to get flexibility from the very beginning.

I don't think you have to go that much further down for JC's; some yes, but you should easily be able to touch the ground with your fingers if not fists by the time you master Windmills.

The biggest difference between the two IME is the forward spinal flexion flexibility component, which is not as heavily emphasized in Windmills.

If I stand in windmill position and turn my upper body/oblique I can touch the ground with my fingertips but when my feets are together and I bend straight forward I get only to the middle of my shins.

Windmill stance give me a few centimeters down and the turn of the upper body the last centimeters to touch the ground.

Try it it's a huge differnece for me.

Again, you should be able to put your fist if not palm flat on the floor (depending on arm/leg/torso length) at the bottom of a windmill if you are matching the demo video, which again may only mean fingertips to fists on the floor with legs together and straight as they do stretch slightly different muscles.

But if you can only touch your fingers tips at the bottom of windmills, then you've still got a ways to go to mastery IME/judging by the demo video and that is likely why you are having so much struggle with the JC's.

Just as a passing note, I can now sit straight (but it takes quite a bit of effort!) and my back now fells better AFTER JC than BEFORE them. Also, weight has been increasing at a rate of 1-2 kg per week, if it fells to easy. Nearly 9 weeks after Coach's advice, I'm now moving 13kg, so it's definetively Worth trying partial ROM.

I first tried going down a little and them i focused on getting down without weights and getting the inversion with weights. Worked like a charm =)

Thanks again, Coach!

SLY said:

 

I don't see perfectation in any iMs with hamstring flexibility requirements in the future for my self.

I even tried several youtube videos with relaxation, myofascial etc technics, but with no results.

 

I am just damned in this case xD

 

Don't give up so easily.  You have only been doing this for 2 months.  Give your body and mind time to adapt.  Your connective tissue takes a long time to adapt.  Your mind has already given up, so there's little chance for it to let your body stretch.  And make sure your legs are nice and warm when you're stretching.  I wear long underwear and sweat pants when I'm stretching my legs.

Post some videos so we can help if there's a form issue.

+1, very interesting topic and videos.

It's the same for me, and I'm working on increasing my hamstring flexibility mostly through lunges stretches rather than seated ones. With an empty wooden bar, I can reach fist to the floor in the JC at the moment. However, I'm not yet at this Im as I went back to PE1 and having problems with my left gracilis. I gained a decent mobility with windmills before this injury.