Help for refining my F1 + H1 + 5/3/1 routine

Hi everyone,

I've finally decided to ask for some suggestions on my routine in the form.

My goals for now:

get stronger especially legs and shoulders, more mobility/agility, ripped body and I wouldn't mind some extra lean body mass.

Also building up to 20 pull-ups (I can do 8/10) and 3 OAC (can do 1 assisted). I know it will take time to build these skills and I want to work them one at the time.

I'm 36, already pretty lean and in not bad shape. I have a sedentary job.

My routine:

• Mon Pilates
• Tue 5/3/1 Deadlift ( as assistance work Overhead Squats 5x10, GHD machine 3x5 )
• Wed F1 (day 1) + HS1
• Thu 5/3/1 Squat ( as assistance work Goodmornings 5x10, Lunges 5x10 )
• Wed F1 (day 2)
• Sat Shoulders workout ( HeSPU progression 3x5, one arm Clean & Press 3x5, Kettlebell Swing 21-15-9 )
• Sun F1 (day 1) + HS1

I do as much stretching/mobility as I can at night.

I'm planning on adding sprints every 7/10 days and Pavel's "Ladders for the busy man" for Pull-ups / OAC.

Often I need to skip a day and end up doing 2 workout in the same day or I shuffle the days a bit trying not to work the same part of the body too hard for consecutive days.

I'm very early in F1 and H1 and I'm seeing good results integrating 5/3/1 with GB.

I'm especially not sure if my shoulders w.u. is very good considering my goals.

I've also thought about doing 5/3/1 Press instead but I love HeSPU and I'd like to keep it.

Also not sure about the best way to implement the ladders, thinking to do it almost everyday before the w.o. working one skill for few weeks and the switch to the other.

I'd love to hear your opinions!

Thanks,

Alessandro

This might feel ok now but will eventually be way to much.  You will be forced to pick one or the other.  Also give yourself a rest.  You are throwing everything into one week.  As coach has said you must earn the ability to do more.  Not start with everything.

Thanks for your answer Daniel.

I'm used to workout 6 days a week but I'm always trying to find smarter and more efficient ways to train.

Probably when F1, H1 will become more intense I will drop something but I really feel that for now (I'm mainly in PE1s except for HBP MN that are PE2) GB only is not enough to get a good training.

I would love to reduce my routine to 5/6 days, any idea how to make it more efficient without neglecting anything?

Alessandro Pantanella said:

• Mon Pilates

Lol wut.  Now I'd never talk shit about Pilates because he was a cigar smoking german boxer who survived WW2 internment camps, so he's probably beat me up, but it's basically watered down gymnastics.  Not to mention a judge in America recently ruled that 'Pilates' as a name now belonged to the people and anyone can call what they do Pilates without any form of consistency.  So yeah, I do Pilates.  I do barbell Pilates.  Really helped me get my bench up....

I'd say as far as the leg work from Foundation goes, you can really just try to integrate the mobility into your squat and deadlift days.  Don't worry about the main progressions, because you'll be building enough leg strength from heavy squats and deads.  In fact, GB is the only place I've ever seen a clear progression path to the glute-ham-raise.  Most places just expect you to get it after a while from heavy deadlifting.....

You can get rid of that shoulder workout as well, unless you're really enjoying it in which case integrate it somewhere else.  I'd suggest putting the handstand pushups after your upper body Foundation workout, and cutting out clean and press and rows altogether.  I'm not even going to touch kettlebell swings, I think they're ridiculous.

So a new schedule might look something like this:

monday - F1 upperbody + handstand pushups

tuesday - squat + F2 lower body

wednesday - rest

thursday - F1 upperbody + handstand pushups

friday - deadlift + F2 lower body

saturday - rest

sunday - rest

What you have to realise with the 5/3/1 mentality is that less is more.  The program is designed to have you avoid overtraining, always  be excited to get in the gym, and to keep getting results.  Trying to work out 7 days a week with 5/3/1 is never going to make sense, because the program isn't designed that way.  If you really want to try a killer lower body routine, run a 13 week cycle of smolov.

Don't worry about adding Pavel either.  You're getting enough work as it is.  Hill sprints are good though, and you can either do them after your lower body days or do them on your rest days.  This is something I've just started experimenting with actually: hill sprints, at 60-70% intensity, seem to be really good active recovery.  I find LSD running to be too taxing on my calves and joints and I just get burned out.  Hill sprints actually seem to help my DOMS, so for me personally I can include them wherever as long as I keep the volume/intensity low.

I know you said you love them and want to keep them, but if you're still on PE1s that may be a sign that handstand push ups are currently not a good idea. 

They may feel good, and hey you may be able to get some, but injury on heavy pressing moves, especially in shoulders and elbows (my elbows are a trouble area) is a very real risk. Sacrifices often must be made in the interest of long term of progress. 

Flogging a dead horse, but the more you focus on the basics, the quicker you will reach the HeSPU section in the F1 series. I am 38, in reasonable shape and it took me a year to get there. Even though I dropped all HeSPU work (I love it, just like you) I appear to not have become weaker in that skill.

Thanks for your inputs guys.

Bipocni: the routine you suggest it's actually a valid alternative to what I'm doing now and I could do F1 4 times instead of 3.

Aiken54 and Ravn, I think what you say makes sense to me.

I've bought F1/H1 few months ago, gave it a try but only decided to make it the center of my routine 5 weeks ago.

I think it's a great program and showed me all my mobility and strength weaknesses.

I'm trying to be as humble as possible and check my ego at the door but I'd like to be able to make the best out of this program to have fun and reach my goals.

Said so I also feel that especially at the beginning there is not enough explosive work, leg work and overhead work to make it a good overall fitness program. I know that this is a very specific Gymnastic Strength Training™ and for this reason I guess that to make it a good GPP program you'll need to add some components to it or pair it with a sport specific training/practice.

The Movements section of the forum has great stuff that is probably worth to implement in one's training also.

I'm not a coach by any mean I'm only a fitness enthusiast that enjoy working out and likes being fit and I find it very difficult to put all the elements together.

I'm sure there are lots of other member in the forum with similar thoughts. 

Please let me help understand better hoe to do it...

Thanks

If you haven't mastered SLS, weighted squats/deadlifts shouldn't be part of your main workout.  As for not enough lower body work, sPL works your hip extensors and MN works your hip flexors  Along with SLS, that's 3 out of 7 exercises targeting lower body.  As for not enough overhead work, you already have H1.  Coach doesn't believe that you should do more than that especially since you only start H2 after you have completed the whole of F2.  

And finally, as for dynamic strength, you're most likely not yet ready to perform them if you don't have a foundation built up.  When Movement 1 is released, that's when Coach will let us know when someone is ready to start transferring maximal strength to dynamic strength

Hmms said:

If you haven't mastered SLS, weighted squats/deadlifts shouldn't be part of your main workout.  As for not enough lower body work, sPL works your hip extensors and MN works your hip flexors  Along with SLS, that's 3 out of 7 exercises targeting lower body.  As for not enough overhead work, you already have H1.  Coach doesn't believe that you should do more than that especially since you only start H2 after you have completed the whole of F2.  

I heard Coach saying that about leg work on an interview on Robb Wolf's podcast but he also talked about integrating olympic lifting with the gymnastics training. I am not proficient in olifting that's why I'm using 5/3/1 to build the basis.

As for H1 I can't wait to get further in the program but I'm still on PE1 W9 because I wanted to make sure my neck get used to the work and I don't fell like my shoulders are doing much and probably it will be the same for PE2 and PE3.

Do you think the best routine would be following only F1+H1 and Movement 1 once released?

I really think that the GB program is fantastic but does people use it alone and get great result already from early stages?

Alessandro Pantanella said:

I heard Coach saying that about leg work on an interview on Robb Wolf's podcast but he also talked about integrating olympic lifting with the gymnastics training. I am not proficient in olifting that's why I'm using 5/3/1 to build the basis.

 

As for H1 I can't wait to get further in the program but I'm still on PE1 W9 because I wanted to make sure my neck get used to the work and I don't fell like my shoulders are doing much and probably it will be the same for PE2 and PE3.

 

Do you think the best routine would be following only F1+H1 and Movement 1 once released?

I really think that the GB program is fantastic but does people use it alone and get great result already from early stages?

Even Olympic lifters don't do just pure CnJ and Snatches.  They also perform maximal strength lifts (squats, deadlifts, presses, etc.)  The gains from maximal strengths (squats etc.) are then transmitted to dynamic strength (olympic lifts etc.)  Same thing in the GB system, where maximal strength (Foundation series) are transferred to dynamic strength (Movement series).

However, before you get to building maximal strength, you first build up mobility.  This is true for the GB system, and even others like Gray Cook's FMS system (who I personally consider as the best physical therapist).  Like Gray Cook always say, "Don't put fitness on top of dysfunction."  The basis doesn't start with strength, it starts with mobility.  That's what the progression up to the mastery of SLS is for.  Get mobility fixed first, then you can start building maximal strength.

The exact same thing applies in H1.  HS/PE1-3 gets you used to being upside down, while at the same time you are building mobility in your shoulders (the iM's).  If you're doing HS/PE1>iM correctly, you should definitely be feeling it in your trapezius.

I really do believe that following the GB system is the best.  Almost all the programs I see puts strength as first, even the very best ones put mobility as secondary.  GB program on the other hand, really tells you that you need to take care first things first, which is restore the proper range of motion in your joints, THEN you build strength on top of that.

Thanks Hmms,

you made your point of view very clear

I agree with you about mobility and form, GB is really helping me with that. 

To be honest however I have to say that working Deadlift and Back Squat with the form as a priority over the weight helped me regain some of the mobility I had lost in my hip and really improved the issues I was having with my knee.

I probably will change my routine to what Bipocni suggested, maybe dropping the HeSPU and once Movement 1 is out I'll think about losing the heavy lifts.

It's possible that along the way I will realize that F1 is giving my legs all they need but the cool thing about the journey is that you can experiment and share what you're doing.

Thanks guys for all your inputs

Hmms said:

The gains from maximal strengths (squats etc.) are then transmitted to dynamic strength (olympic lifts etc.)

Can I ask to see your proof please?

Bipocni said:

Can I ask to see your proof please?

Its pretty well established this is true.  Look into any reputable coach including Pendaly and you will find they try to up maximal strength in non oly movements to improve the main even.

Daniel Burnham said:

Its pretty well established this is true.

You know when you find something really good on the internet and you forget to save it for later, and then you can't find it again?

Anyway I read a couple things recently that basically illustrate the point that maximum squat/deadlift weight has little carryover to C&J and snatch weight.  Basically consistently across the board (we're talking competitive on a global scale here) athletes with really high squats tend to under perform at the olympic lifts, whereas the really good olympic lifters only squat slightly higher than their olympic lift numbers.

Really wish I could find it but I think it's gone, just like that really awesome article I read once that made me hate kettlebells....

Edit: Nope, nevermind, I found it.  http://www.dynamic-eleiko.com/sportivny/library/farticles004.html

Bipocni said:

Anyway I read a couple things recently that basically illustrate the point that maximum squat/deadlift weight has little carryover to C&J and snatch weight.  Basically consistently across the board (we're talking competitive on a global scale here) athletes with really high squats tend to under perform at the olympic lifts, whereas the really good olympic lifters only squat slightly higher than their olympic lift numbers.

You know that one F3 weighted leg work thread? This reminds me of Coachs comments on heavy squats there.

Jon Douglas said:

You know that one F3 weighted leg work thread? This reminds me of Coachs comments on heavy squats there.

Nope.  I only have F1-2 and H1.  I don't see that changing any time soon either, even though it means I'm missing out on some really cool threads (as you keep pointing out.)

Bipocni said:

Nope.  I only have F1-2 and H1.  I don't see that changing any time soon either, even though it means I'm missing out on some really cool threads (as you keep pointing out.)

I must admit, this time my intention was pure pettiness

Jon Douglas said:

I must admit, this time my intention was pure pettiness

Stop teasing me....

Bipocni said:

You know when you find something really good on the internet and you forget to save it for later, and then you can't find it again?

 

Anyway I read a couple things recently that basically illustrate the point that maximum squat/deadlift weight has little carryover to C&J and snatch weight.  Basically consistently across the board (we're talking competitive on a global scale here) athletes with really high squats tend to under perform at the olympic lifts, whereas the really good olympic lifters only squat slightly higher than their olympic lift numbers.

 

Really wish I could find it but I think it's gone, just like that really awesome article I read once that made me hate kettlebells....

 

Edit: Nope, nevermind, I found it.  http://www.dynamic-eleiko.com/sportivny/library/farticles004.html

That article diverts from what we're talking about here.  The article is basically back to the question of when should an advanced athlete shift focus from maximal strength gains to dynamic strengths as their main training focus and when maximal lower body strength gains starts to experience a diminishing return, something that Coach has talked about over the years.

Whereas here, we're talking about the beginning stages, focus on maximal leg strength and to build up your joints before we shift focus from maximal strength gains to dynamic strength

By the way, the article mentioned front squats may be better than front squats.  I agree with that and I haven't done back squats in years.

Hmms said:

By the way, the article mentioned front squats may be better than front squats.

Okay yes the analogy was just an analogy, sorry for picking on you.  I just find it interesting that so many people are like "front squat is 85% of back squat and clean is 85% of front squat" when they immediately go on to say that they once cleaned 99% of their front squat.  And then there's famous examples of people who could squat more than twice what they could clean, and we're not talking baby weight here....

Of slightly more relevant note, I find it interesting that M1 has no prerequisites when Coach recently stated that it's no accident he's releasing Movement over a year after Foundation.  You know, due to the high injury risk.

I agree with your initial premise though.  A certain amount of tendon strengthening must be undertaken before engaging in plyometric or otherwise explosive work.  Funnily enough I've heard people say the best way to do this is with high reps, while others say low reps.  I'm inclined to believe the low rep camp, because all those strength gains have to come from somewhere (yes, I know it's the CNS) and since the muscles aren't inclined to get bigger at low reps, the structural support has to get stronger instead in order to transmit the force.....

But we're getting off topic here.  OP, if you haven't already, give RFESS a go as assistance work for the deadlift.  I find they really hit the glutes and hamstrings well if you focus on depth.  Also they help increase flexibility in the hip flexors, and those baby's can really screw up your deadlift if they're too tight.  Finally, they're customiseable as  well.  If you hold the dumbells down by your side you get some extra grip work, or you can hold them in goblet position for some extra core work.  Hell, even just hold one suitcase style to work anti-rotational stability.  Really just depends where you're weak.