RC/PE6 Advancement?

I totally hear your frustration.  I know this is against dogma, but I've added timed rest into my training.  I use a rest period based on the time under tension.  So for RC/PE6 this is 90 seconds.  While the 90s is going on I do the mobility.  This ends up giving me about 30-40 seconds between the mobility and the next set.  It was driving me crazy though that the rest wasn't controlled.  Now, my set times are consistent and I can further compare one training session to the next.  Also I can move that rest up or down comparatively as well.   

I'm also a larger person at 220lbs and 6'2".   

Nino Begovic said:

Anybody else constantly getting golfer's elbow from this one? Been doing it for almost a year now and still battling not to provoke the inflammation. My latest try is to try repeat the mini cycle (block 2) over and over again until it feels easy, to give time for the tissue build up. Haven't heard of anybody taking this long though.

Golfer's elbow takes sooo long to heal. You probably need to take four-six weeks off from pulling movements, and then start over at a much lower intensity (ie. earlier progression).

I don't know I feel pretty strong in pulling and pretty much everything else also but it is those endurance related 5x60r/s ones that are huge road blocks. I've made it to 3x60 + 1x48 + 1x36 but that was the limit i think because it resulted in some weird strain in the neck muscles and pretty provoked golfer's elbow. That was pretty early on in F1 and on a rotating bar (didn't have a static one). And since then I've tried pretty much everything, tried doing it on rings, on smith machine, splitting to 10x30 and trying to build to less sets with more endurance toward 5x60 but to no avail. So i decided to back off and just remain at block 2 until it feels easy. I dont know.. maybe i need to give time some time.

Nino Begovic said:

I don't know I feel pretty strong in pulling and pretty much everything else also but it is those endurance related 5x60r/s ones that are huge road blocks. I've made it to 3x60 + 1x48 + 1x36 but that was the limit i think because it resulted in some weird strain in the neck muscles and pretty provoked golfer's elbow. That was pretty early on in F1 and on a rotating bar (didn't have a static one). And since then I've tried pretty much everything, tried doing it on rings, on smith machine, splitting to 10x30 and trying to build to less sets with more endurance toward 5x60 but to no avail. So i decided to back off and just remain at block 2 until it feels easy. I dont know.. maybe i need to give time some time.

I've been exactly in your place, trying every trick in the book to make the tendonitis go away, but it would take nothing to provoke it. I've made a few posts about how to deal with, try and search for them. However, the essence is to rest until the pain is completely gone, then start over at a much lower intensity. At this stage, pulling exercises may cause pain or tenderness of no more than 1 or 2 on a scale of ten. The idea is that you need to introduce inflammation to the injured area, to initiate repair processes. Move too fast, however, and you will reintroduce injury faster than your inflammatory systems can repair the area.

In short: Rest until no pain, ie. ~4 weeks.

Then exercise very slightly until you feel good but with perhaps a very slight tenderness. Rest a couple of days and repeat. Allow your body time to rebuild itself.

I have been doing these daily for one set moderate intensity. I went from 40 secs to 60 secs in 1-2 weeks. I am the doing a multi set test each week. I got 4x36 two days ago. This is one of those exercises that has not responded like all of my other exercises. This was the only thing I haven't tried, so I am so glad it is working. I am not sure what time a one rep hold will translate to 5x60. I am guessing around 1:45-2 mins.

Very interesting, Mark. Please keep us updated.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Milkman said:

I don't think I'm overtrained or under recovered.  Other elements have progressed quite nicely.  I can't say that I blow right through the others or that I don't need to repeat micro-cycles.  I've had some problems with the FL progressions, but nothing like the RC/PE6.  I've also had some problems with sPL/PE5, but again, nothing like RC/PE6.  Other than those, I've pretty much moved right along.

 

I honestly think that RC/PE6 is extraordinarily difficult for adults...especially big ones like myself.  The RC progressions after 6, I'm capable of now, and was quite a while ago.  I don't see the logic of this RC/PE6.  Doing a 60 second hang, then doing the mobility, then jumping back up on that bar with no rest seems a bit crazy.  It's not as if the mobility is rest, so it's pretty much continuous work.  

 

However, I'm following the program like a good soldier.  I paid for this sucker and I'll follow it.  If I continue to struggle with this at 1 year, I will definitely evaluate this.  I know this might get me in trouble, but I see Ido's students, including women, progressing with some amazing stuff much faster than I am at this point.  It's a bit frustrating, given I don't understand the logic of this or how to really get past this hump.

For the logic behind this exercise do some research into isometric contractions.

As to getting past the point you are at, just keep doing the exercise. You are developing your the connective tissue and the muscles of your back, biceps, and forearms.

Mark Collins said:

I have been doing these daily for one set moderate intensity. I went from 40 secs to 60 secs in 1-2 weeks. I am the doing a multi set test each week. I got 4x36 two days ago. This is one of those exercises that has not responded like all of my other exercises. This was the only thing I haven't tried, so I am so glad it is working. I am not sure what time a one rep hold will translate to 5x60. I am guessing around 1:45-2 mins.

I like the thought of this. When you say daily do you mean literally every day?

If this really works it sounds to me like a solution that would require less recovery. (Good for avoiding golfer's elbow in my thoughts.)

Whenever I fail I just go back a month.  No need to complicate things when I simply and not ready.

If going back a month works for you, that's great.  I've done that for about 8 months now.  It's not working very well for me.

Mark, I'd like to hear more about how you implemented this solution.  Did you try one max hold per day, even on days that you were doing this exercise?  Any clarification would be appreciated.  Thanks.

I have failed at the 5x36 secs for a long time and as I felt no progress in time or form I decided on the daily approach. Bear in mind I have done some exercises for 18 months, so I am patient. I just mastered PPP yesterday after 18 months. Each cycle I stuck with the template as I could feel improvements in form.

I decided to try daily after attending a tendon conference the protocol for early tendon rehab was 3-5 sets of 60 secs 5 times a day. As I was busy I did 3 sets of 60 secs for my gluteus mediums and increased from 10 secs to 60 seconds in several weeks. The sets were not pushed to the max and were moderate in intensity. After doing this I thought it might help my bent arm hangs.

I started with 30 seconds with moderate intensity for one set. I did this in the morning before going to work and did my regular training at night. Once 30 secs was easy I just added 5 secs. Some days I would drop back if I felt fatigued. It has not taken long to build to 60 seconds. I think it has been two weeks. I have not taken a set to the point of severe shaking like I normally do. I do this six days a week and then do the normal template on the seventh day.

I have done this at the same time as increasing my Crossfit back to five days and a 1.5 hours gymnastic skills lesson. All my other exercises I am only doing once per week. Strangely my other exercises have progressed better with once a week, but my bent arm hangs like to be worked daily. Maybe my brachialis has a lot of slow twitch fibres and needs the frequent training.

I think there are many ways to approach this evil exercise and sometimes it takes a bit of experimenting whilst using the template framework. I think it would be better if Coach put us out of misery and let us get away with 5x30 secs

Mark Collins said:

I have failed at the 5x36 secs for a long time and as I felt no progress in time or form I decided on the daily approach. Bear in mind I have done some exercises for 18 months, so I am patient. I just mastered PPP yesterday after 18 months. Each cycle I stuck with the template as I could feel improvements in form.

I decided to try daily after attending a tendon conference the protocol for early tendon rehab was 3-5 sets of 60 secs 5 times a day. As I was busy I did 3 sets of 60 secs for my gluteus mediums and increased from 10 secs to 60 seconds in several weeks. The sets were not pushed to the max and were moderate in intensity. After doing this I thought it might help my bent arm hangs.

I started with 30 seconds with moderate intensity for one set. I did this in the morning before going to work and did my regular training at night. Once 30 secs was easy I just added 5 secs. Some days I would drop back if I felt fatigued. It has not taken long to build to 60 seconds. I think it has been two weeks. I have not taken a set to the point of severe shaking like I normally do. I do this six days a week and then do the normal template on the seventh day.

I have done this at the same time as increasing my Crossfit back to five days and a 1.5 hours gymnastic skills lesson. All my other exercises I am only doing once per week. Strangely my other exercises have progressed better with once a week, but my bent arm hangs like to be worked daily. Maybe my brachialis has a lot of slow twitch fibres and needs the frequent training.

I think there are many ways to approach this evil exercise and sometimes it takes a bit of experimenting whilst using the template framework. I think it would be better if Coach put us out of misery and let us get away with 5x30 secs

Okay, I am very intrigued but not completely sure I understand your approach. You do ONE daily set of chin hangs for 5 days a week trying to add 5 seconds of hang time (without shaking, not dropping down, perfect form, still not struggling too much though) every once your hang time feels easy to you. And this is due to the nature of the brachialis having a lot of slow twitch fibers.

Is this correctly understood?

Mark Collins said:

I think it would be better if Coach put us out of misery and let us get away with 5x30 secs

Hahaha good luck with that (Secretly hoping and actively waiting for Coach to reply compliantly.)

(No longer hoping for Coach to comply.)

Freshpro said:

Okay, I am very intrigued but not completely sure I understand your approach. You do ONE daily set of chin hangs for 5 days a week trying to add 5 seconds of hang time (without shaking, not dropping down, perfect form, still not struggling too much though) every once your hang time feels easy to you. And this is due to the nature of the brachialis having a lot of slow twitch fibers.

 

Is this correctly understood?

Once a day for one set. Time depends on how I feel. I only increase if I feel strong that day. I am not sure about the fibre make up of my brachialis as it just speculation. The only way to tell would be a biopsy.

Mark Collins said:

Once a day for one set. Time depends on how I feel. I only increase if I feel strong that day. I am not sure about the fibre make up of my brachialis as it just speculation. The only way to tell would be a biopsy.

Mark any updates on how this went for you?

Destiny said:

Mark any updates on how this went for you?

I found it to be good to break through to the next 4 weeks. But then psychologically I resented doing it. It's not the most enjoying exercise;). For me it's probably best to use this strategy short term.

This can be a good strategy in general. To curb impatience it's important you have determined your are truly stuck on an element. 

For me that will mean a minimum of three cycles (months) with no improvement, but being a very patient guy, I've gone much longer.

The way I implement it is to do one extra set of the nemesis about 4x/week while cutting back on other elements to 1x/week. 

This gives me lots of extra energy to attempt the breakthrough, and what has surprised me is that all the other elements still are rolling along nicely.

As usual you'll know if this is the right strategy if you see progress, Also as Mark notes, it's a breakthrough method, 3 cycles max. Whenever I've done this, it was clear right away if it was the right thing to do at the moment or not.

One important skill to learn in the long term is; when is more volume the answer and when is more rest the answer, for a given exercise and your over all programming. This is done with what adds up to years of patient observation and why keeping some form of record of your progress is so important.

Also note I'm positing this as just another trainee, not as an official GB statement.