What's better for core Ab Wheel or L-sit?

Caveat: I'm only at F1.

The issue is not lack of progressions with the ab wheel. There are many progressions with the ab wheel. Ab wheel on your feet (not knees) with one-arm (not two arms) and downhill (not flat or uphill) wearing a heavy weighted vest with a hold in the extended position anyone? :-) Ross Enamait on Rosstraining demonstrates many progressions with the ab wheel.

Therefore, the advantage of the front lever over the ab wheel is something else than progressions of the exercise itself. Ross is a boxing trainer whereas Coach is a gymnastic trainer. Therefore, it seems reasonable to assume that the advantage of the front lever over the ab wheel is progressions with other GST exercises. I cannot explain it better. I hope someone else will.

Lately, I try to focus on GST and only afterward play with other strength exercises such as the the ab wheel. I'm still only at F1 but I make faster progress than before by focusing on GST and I enjoy that. If I just could improve my flexibility (range of motion) as fast ...

Anders Alexandersson said:

 

Therefore, the advantage of the front lever over the ab wheel is something else than progressions of the exercise itself.

I have to agree with that. Which is better kind of depends on better for what? If you're pursueing gymnastics than the front lever is the obvious choice.

Note: this was a discussion of the benefits of the L-sit versus the ab wheel.

And actually, what should have been noted is that the OP (rival11) is trying to improve his straddle planche... I think in BtGB, Coach Sommer noted the strong carryover from Front Lever into L-Sit in one of his athletes, while another athlete with a strong Straddle Planche did not show the same proficiency in the L-Sit. I would guess the correlation is the same in reverse, so I don't think you should be focusing on the L-Sit for the betterment of your Planche (though it might be good for general strength balance).

Edit: I think back levers were also noted as a prerequisite for a solid planche in BtGB, so that might be of interest to you, rival11

I honestly did want to know what the thoughts were on this (without bringing up planche) - I AIN'T NO GYMNAST!!! ha - I'm not though and never will be - just trying to get a straddle planche.

Hell I think good ol' Jack LaLanne pushups are on par with both............to an extent.

I don't have the necessary equipment to do front levers and back levers, I don't have time to go to a gym as well.

I asked the question in this thread because I don't know anything about how the muscles in the core are worked differently when doing the ab-wheel and l-sit.

Also, I keep hearing/seeing here and elswhere that "L-sit and placnhe go hand in hand" only to then see people say that l-sit isn't needed for planche??

Only just a month ago did I see the true benefit of placnhe leans - I think they are SERIOUSLY underrated - my strength has increased big time from doing them properly (arms completely locked out with a solid hollow-body maintained) - I am even going to continue doing both wrist pushups and placnhe leans indefinitely even when I do obtain planche.

Last thing I wanted to do was start any wars or anything like that - let's not turn this fourm into bodybuilding.com .....please.

rival11 said:

Last thing I wanted to do was start any wars or anything like that - let's not turn this fourm into bodybuilding.com .....please.

^+1 to that.

In my very amateur opinion:

The L-sit would be a great thing to train alongside the planche. For the Planche itself, stick with the planche leans and once you get those down really solid, hit up the progression in BtGB. For planche-related core work, you should do exercises to work the posterior side of your core (lower back, hamstrings, glutes, etc). That could be reverse leg raises, hyperextensions, maybe deadlift variations. You might want to research further on that on your own.

Foundation is also obviously a great source for planche development (as well as many other strength skills).

Edit: also be sure to check out the sticky post on planche lean form in case you haven't already!

This blogpost over on Rosstraining may have some relevance here.

Ravn said:

This blogpost over on Rosstraining may have some relevance here.

One of the most simple, yet satisfying reads in a while for me. 

As far as carryover to the planche goes, I'd have to say L sit.  It involves that crucial element of scapula depression.

Really though, I've never heard anyone say they can't planche because they have a weak core.  It's normally shoulder strength, or busted elbows.

OP, what's this about you don't have the equipment to do a front lever?  You do pullups or what?

Let me share some of my personal experience just to give some additional perspective.

I started attempting evil wheels (my preferred term for  ab rollouts) in 2011 after having seen a 70+ year-old guy do them and being impressed beyond belief.

Mine were done on my knees, and after about six months I started doing them while standing but with the support of a wall, as I was not strong enough in the core or shoulders to completely extend my body and arms parallel to the floor.

Of course doing them without instruction, and not knowing anything about hollowing my back, or any of those cues, my progress was very slow, but there was still progress.

After doing evil wheels about 5 days a week for almost 12 months prior to F1, my abs became really strong and developed, and when I began F1 in Nov-Dec 2013 I attempted mastery of FL-PE1 thinking that my core was really strong and mastery wouldn't be a problem.

I don't think I even finished one set of 60 secs. It was that bad.

It has taken me over 4 months to reach mastery of FL-PE1. And this was a guy that was "almost there" with being able to do a full evil wheel.

Just sharing personal experience, not saying which is better than the other. I'll leave that up to you to decide.

~Atticus said:

Let me share some of my personal experience just to give some additional perspective.

I started attempting evil wheels (my preferred term for  ab rollouts) in 2011 after having seen a 70+ year-old guy do them and being impressed beyond belief.

Mine were done on my knees, and after about six months I started doing them while standing but with the support of a wall, as I was not strong enough in the core or shoulders to completely extend my body and arms parallel to the floor.

Of course doing them without instruction, and not knowing anything about hollowing my back, or any of those cues, my progress was very slow, but there was still progress.

After doing evil wheels about 5 days a week for almost 12 months prior to F1, my abs became really strong and developed, and when I began F1 in Nov-Dec 2013 I attempted mastery of FL-PE1 thinking that my core was really strong and mastery wouldn't be a problem.

I don't think I even finished one set of 60 secs. It was that bad.

It has taken me over 4 months to reach mastery of FL-PE1. And this was a guy that was "almost there" with being able to do a full evil wheel.

Just sharing personal experience, not saying which is better than the other. I'll leave that up to you to decide.

Don't you think that you're underestimating the full ab wheel roll-out if you had never been able to do one with proper form?

~Atticus said:

Let me share some of my personal experience just to give some additional perspective.

I started attempting evil wheels (my preferred term for  ab rollouts) in 2011 after having seen a 70+ year-old guy do them and being impressed beyond belief.

Mine were done on my knees, and after about six months I started doing them while standing but with the support of a wall, as I was not strong enough in the core or shoulders to completely extend my body and arms parallel to the floor.

Of course doing them without instruction, and not knowing anything about hollowing my back, or any of those cues, my progress was very slow, but there was still progress.

After doing evil wheels about 5 days a week for almost 12 months prior to F1, my abs became really strong and developed, and when I began F1 in Nov-Dec 2013 I attempted mastery of FL-PE1 thinking that my core was really strong and mastery wouldn't be a problem.

I don't think I even finished one set of 60 secs. It was that bad.

It has taken me over 4 months to reach mastery of FL-PE1. And this was a guy that was "almost there" with being able to do a full evil wheel.

Just sharing personal experience, not saying which is better than the other. I'll leave that up to you to decide.

You never mention how far you advanced with the ab-wheel rollouts progression, so it's not really a fair comparison.

Also I would like to point out that since they're two different exercises, there's no definite carryover between the two. I've read somewhere else on the forum that there have been cases of someone with a front lever being able to do ab-wheel rollouts on their first attempt, but not the other way around. Probably because FL works the same core muscles as the full extended point of the ab-wheel rollout, which is the hardest part of the rep. Since one would have mastered the hardest part of the rep by mastering FL first, it's no wonder why they are able to do it on their first attempt.

But ab-wheel rollout only trains the fully extended position, which is similar to FL in regards to muscles activated, at the very end of the rep, hence the carryover is not that great this way around. This is from the fact that ab-wheel rollout has a different method of compression than a FL, where the rollouts also lift the legs closer to the torso whereas FL focuses on hollowbody.

That's not to say rollouts are inferior to FL, it really depends on what your goals are. If you're goal is to be a competitive gymnast then you are best off focusing on what movements you are going to be judged on, aka. FL and not rollout. You might still include rollouts somewhere in your routine, but mostly as supplementary to your FL work.

But really, it's not a case of one or the other, there are no limits, you can do both if you want.

Is it really harder than body lever with shoulders elevated? I have to admit I'm extremely curious now

i dont know but it sounds kind of funny to think that perhaps the FL > Ab Roll-out comes to the rollout using the hollow and also pulling strength(from using the lats) and the same being done in the FL only with straight arms and suspending the entire bodies weight, not a portion like in an ab roll out. thoughts? am i getting the jist?

I can't speak from personal experience here, but I've definitely seen people with front levers do standing ab wheels the first time they tried it.  I'll find a youtube video of this exact thing if you want.

Bipocni said:

I can't speak from personal experience here, but I've definitely seen people with front levers do standing ab wheels the first time they tried it.  I'll find a youtube video of this exact thing if you want.

I was one of the people that could do the full standing ab wheel roll-out on my first try and I had the FL before even trying the ab wheel.

which would be better for developing core strength for handstand presses- l sits or full wheel rollouts ? I can currently hold an l sit for 10 seconds but cant do a full rollout. I have tried headstand pike presses and can now do 3 sets of 10 reps easily.

Also for shoulder strength should i practice handstand push ups or tuck planche ? I know that handstand presses require straight arm strength but still will handstand push ups help me.  i still cant do a full HSPU but iam progressing with negatives. my main goal is a straddle press. So should i stop practising HSPU and start tuck planche training or stick with HSPU ?