PE:2 IM - additional work.

I've been on this IM for about 20 weeks now. I'm making progress but it's slow. What else can I do to help me master this? I'm finding the IMs from F1 FL and HBP are helping but I don't want to spend anther 20 weeks on this just to get my hands fractionally closer.

First, start by pointing your elbow pits down.  It seriously helps.

Second, german hangs and things of that sort should help.  The problem with this iM is that it's an active stretch, so in theory a passive stretch should allow you to get more comfortable with the same ROM.

It won't carryover completely, but if you can't even reach the required ROM with assistance, there's no way you'll be able to pull into it...

Cheers, the elbow trick helps. I can get into the position (Table/German hang) it just seems impossible to pull my hands up into position.

t I don't want to spend anther 20 weeks on this just to get my hands fractionally closer.

Get used to it. Slow progress is still progress

Adriano Flo said:

Get used to it. Slow progress is still progress

I don't want to seem impatient or that I'm not prepared to put in the work but it's going to be hard to stick with this IM for so long.

Geman hangs and MN/SE15-im helped me master it.

German hangs gave me bicep grief before. If I did them would it be OK to stand on something? Also how did you incorporate into your workout? I'll check out MN:SE15.

Cheers.

Standing on something is fine, in fact you should work up to full German hangs over months, not weeks. I do 3x30 of both stretches as part of my H1 warm-up. MN 15 first, because it's less hard on the biceps. I pair them with previously mastered im's. Pe2-im and German hangs are an excellent match :-)

Ravn said:

Standing on something is fine, in fact you should work up to full German hangs over months, not weeks. I do 3x30 of both stretches as part of my H1 warm-up. MN 15 first, because it's less hard on the biceps. I pair them with previously mastered im's. Pe2-im and German hangs are an excellent match :-)

Great! I'll give it a try on my next H1 day.

Adriano Flo said:

Get used to it. Slow progress is still progress

it can be frustrating working 5 months (or even 8-9) on one excercise since there are 24 more waiting to be mastered. It will take forever (15-20 years) to master handstand with this pace. Unless this first iM's create solid base for other iM's and  it will be a walk in the park to master them. If not, I'm going to be H1 finishing grandpa

Rafal, when you do the iM, where do you feel the most tension?

KeilaniG said:

Rafal, when you do the iM, where do you feel the most tension?

oh, I was not talking about my stagnation since I'm at the begining of the road named H1 (just mastered iM1). I'll let you know when I try iM2 (I learned a lesson and searched for all iM2 topics before started to work on it).

It's just a thought because it's another person I see struggling few months with one shoulder stretch and everybody say "be patient".

I know that frustration - I try to improve my pancake stretch for over a year now (I hope H2 won't contain pancake as iM )  

Ravn said:

Geman hangs and MN/SE15-im helped me master it.

I tried three sets of that before today's HS workout and it helped. Just a few cm's more and PE2 is mastered.

kay

Anyone have this kind of advice for HS/PE1>IM? I've been at it since the handstand series came out, and though I've made really significant progress in my ROM, I'm probably only half-way to mastery (yeah, my zombie-ness was/is *that* bad). Anything that could speed this up without injuring me would be greatly appreciated. 

stretch your pecs and Lats.

also imagine you're doing it similar to PE5, you're elevating the scap and also retracting.

any additional cues go through the search function

Thanks Keilani, I was suspecting my pec minors and lats were major impediments after trying the diagnostic tests in that T-nation article someone posted last week. 

I just rolled my pec minors with a lacrosse ball. Holy crap, it felt like I was being stabbed by a hot knife. My lats are only marginally better but ridiculous nonetheless. I'll start rolling these regularly and continue with the usual stretches from the RC PEs and Kit's book. Keilani, seeing as you're the resident rolling expert, how often should I be doing this? Is it something I can do every day, or do I have to let the muscles heal before tenderizing the crap out of them again? Also, if my pec minors are sore now (not intensely, mostly when I pull my arms back a little), does it mean that I went too hard or is this something I should expect and strive for?

Thanks again, 

M

M

im no expert, i just played around saw what worked and if it did, then i kinda kept researching along that vein.

i usually play it by ear but some mobility has gone back to tight if i didnt give it at least occasional attention, especially my quads! i have to roll frequently and remember to PPT to not let it go back to crap again. as for other places, idk, play it by ear as well, find what works for you.

rolling in spots and doing timed sections are not so effective for me, i need to pause in the border of the tender spot, apply pressure and hang out there for a bit. then wait for the tension to go away and repeat until i get bored(because its pretty "involving" being at the same pain/discomfort border and then relaxing and subjecting yourself to it again.) psoas smash and floasing has this effect on me. thats why i need to do it from the border, apply pressure if needed an hang out until it goes away or else i never do it (cause it really does suck!)

Agreed with Keilani. Some areas of my body need daily attention, others don't. I'm constantly smashing the crap out of IT band to good effect.

I know that Kelly Starrett recommends working on areas daily and for St least 2 minutes a section.

For me, I've found that when i find a tight spot, it might take me a minute or two just to work out that knot. Then I keep going. I usually spend a minimum of ten minutes on my quads and calves. Chest rolling for me seems like it doesn't need as much attention. A couple minutes for warm up and I'm good to go.

Shit, so I'm going to need to keep stabbing the hot knife in my chest over the long term? I had assumed that once I fully released the problem areas, the limbering I get from the F and H series would keep me from reverting back to my zombie state. This sucks ass, but thanks for the input; better to have a more realistic view of what to expect rather than getting carried away with thoughts of one day being as lithe as a 12-year old ballerina or Jon (who makes ballerinas look stiff). 

it just depends on you, you'll soon find a synergistic effect of working on one area also improves others. once, i went an entire session starting from my chest, then to my back down my calves and up around my shins upto my quads. best i've felt even after a massage.

it takes some getting used to and also, working on your tightest spots all the time instead of floating over no tension land. >_<

I assume, I haven't reached this point yet, that once one does master the iM, that you won't have to be so aggressive with the tissue. I'm continually improving so m not cutting it out yet.

I've been using the table pose from yoga to help with HS/PE2 iM. I do it on my fists with my palms facing forward to emulate the position that the bar is held.  Keeping my hands flat seems to put too much stress on my biceps unless I turn them around into the traditional yoga pose, which I also do to get another stretch.

That seems to help on top of putting the pole on a chair and then sitting down into position until my arms are in line with my shoulders.  It feels fine but I just can't lift my arms into that position on my own yet.  But I'm making progress.  

After a month and a half on this iM I didn't notice any change either so I started to add in german hangs after my F1 work. Even after adding in german hangs I couldn't see the carry over.

So what what I done was, in the german hang, stick my chest out and straighten my body so as to imitate the iM positioning. Your body isn't hunched in the iM so that's probably why standard german hangs don't do much. With only 2 x 20 second sets I improved dramatically. Of course with this version I kept my feet on the ground to take off some of the load. As I progressed with this stretch, I first felt it in my deltoids, but then my deltoids would be fine and the stretch moved on to my chest.

Key I think is to just stretch the position maintaining the same body alignment of the iM. Within a month I saw a huge difference. This difference being that my arms could nearly achieve the ROM required for the iM. So hope this helps.  

Oh, and I changed to using no weight on the iM as even without weight I noticed I couldn't achieve anything better. Weight just meant I would lose the ROM I did have as fatigue started to settle in. Even without weight the contraction in my traps was crazy!! Concentrated solely on getting the ROM. Why add weight if you can't achieve full ROM without it. Of course when you get there, add the weight. 

Kevin Sach said:

So what what I done was, in the german hang, stick my chest out and straighten my body so as to imitate the iM positioning. Your body isn't hunched in the iM so that's probably why standard german hangs don't do much. With only 2 x 20 second sets I improved dramatically. Of course with this version I kept my feet on the ground to take off some of the load. As I progressed with this stretch, I first felt it in my deltoids, but then my deltoids would be fine and the stretch moved on to my chest.

Thanks Kevin, I'm going to try this. I didn't believe my starting point for PE2 iM could be any worse than it was for PE1 iM... until I tried it. My anterior delts just seem to be too tight to get my arms horizontal regardless of grip width. I hope the extra stretching will help my tables as well, since with those I always end up flexing my t-spine inadvertently.

Another idea I had was a weighted stretch where you would lie supine on a bench to keep your back straight, then you would hold dumbells and let your arms hang vertically. I haven't found anywhere suitable to try that one yet though.

Kevin Sach said:

Oh, and I changed to using no weight on the iM as even without weight I noticed I couldn't achieve anything better. Weight just meant I would lose the ROM I did have as fatigue started to settle in. Even without weight the contraction in my traps was crazy!! Concentrated solely on getting the ROM. Why add weight if you can't achieve full ROM without it. Of course when you get there, add the weight. 

I am inclined to agree with you on this one. I know the usual advice is that some weight is necessary to achieve the correct activation, but I think if you're so tight that you are really fighting your antagonist muscles to get enough ROM, then that is resistance enough. Probably better to go very wide with a little weight than narrower with no weight though, assuming you can get your arms horizontal.