Does Passive Flexibility Translate to Active?

Hey all!

 

I did my first day of H1 today and comfortably displayed mastery of all of the PE1s. Then I took a look at what would be up next, noticed the upcoming HS/PE2>iM (Shoulder Extension), and took a quick whack at it. This led me to my first humbling experience so far, since I thought I was pretty set on the mobility front. Turns out that even at double shoulder width and light weight, I'm still not quite parallel to the floor!

 

Accepting that I will be on this element for a while, I read posts on this forum from others who have struggled with this particular mobility element and came across some arguments over passive and active flexibility.

 

Evidently, you specifically need the active flexibility in your shoulders to master HS/PE2>iM, but will training similar passive stretches (such as German Hangs and Weighted Shoulder Flex Pulls) help to achieve said active flexibility?

No, passive flexibility gains do not lead to active flexibility gains.  This is a hard fact of life that many people are encountering now for the first time in their foundation work.

 

Also weighted shoulder flex pulls are an active flexbility exercise; not passive.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

NoHiddenCosts said:

 

Accepting that I will be on this element for a while, I read posts on this forum from others who have struggled with this particular mobility element and came across some arguments over passive and active flexibility.

 

Evidently, you specifically need the active flexibility in your shoulders to master HS/PE2>iM, but will training similar passive stretches (such as German Hangs and Weighted Shoulder Flex Pulls) help to achieve said active flexibility?

passive and active flexibility is just steps in building usable ROM with muscular strength, passive flexibility is nice but your body will almost "allow" you to use that flexibility only if you can access it through....you guessed it, muscular strength. iM1-2 is an example of an active stretch, whereas, you can put your hands overhead, place them on a wall and pull your chest downwards(this would be a passive stretch)

 

when we're working handstands, since you're going to be in an overhead loaded position, what we want is active flexibility to be able to not only be there but to be able to move around to make corrections.

 

depending on where you are with your mobility, you can do some PNF pectoralis stretches to supplement your H1 mobility, but not the other way around, doing H1 iM's will make you better at H1 iM's and some additional stretching can help assist that once you're workout is done or you can do them in your warmup to get you ready.  

 

active is what you want, passive can help you along the way of getting what you want. though you might feel you are spinning your wheels(I experienced this as well) just remember that you can -scale- the work, start off with 3-5lbs(I was very weak and very stiff in these muscles, so i started with 3lbs, mastered that weight, bumped it to 5lb, mastered that weight, move onto next iM but keep going through that cycle of bumping up the weight gradually, until you reach (to coaches preference) 25lb and if you feel so inclined, work it upto 45lbs.

Thank you both for your replies!

 

Coach Sommer (or any others who can explain) -- Is the Weighted Shoulder Flex Pull an active stretch because gravity plays much less of a role than it would in a German Hang? (a plate versus one's bodyweight) And would one progress in the stretch by using less weight?

NoHiddenCosts said:

Thank you both for your replies!

Coach Sommer (or any others who can explain) -- Is the Weighted Shoulder Flex Pull an active stretch because gravity plays much less of a role than it would in a German Hang? (a plate versus one's bodyweight) And would one progress in the stretch by using less weight?

going back aling the vein of the first paragraph i wrote, lets do some dissecting.

shoulder flex pull- active stretch

german hang- active stretch

german hang on the floor(kind of like your setting up for a reverse plank, instead of pressing up into the plank, you glide your hands a bit backward and open your chest while you put a bit of pressure to the floor, hold for a count of 5, re-stretch and move to your new end ROM and repeat until you hit your wall. usually i keep it at 3-5 sets depending on the muscle groups or how fastidious your tight spots are.)- example of taking it into a passive stretch.

Is the German Hang not a passive stretch, since the bar or rings on which you hang in combination with gravity provide an external force to stretch your muscles?

 

In the same way, I had originally figured holding a plate in the shoulder flex pull made the stretch a passive one, though now I'm assuming it is more of an "assisted" active stretch.

 

Apologies for the contesting questions; I just want to make sure I understand the concept.

http://www.exercisebiology.com/index.php/site/articles/types_of_stretching_static_active_dynamic_pnf_functional_stretching/

@KeilaniG

German Hang is a passive stretch. It is done by gravity (external force) , not opposing muscle groups (shoulders extenders) as it is very well explained in the article you propose.

you're right, i remember someone mentioning something about the german hang and it not being in the realm of something. my mind could be playing tricks on me with the association

mikaits said:

@KeilaniG

German Hang is a passive stretch. It is done by gravity (external force) , not opposing muscle groups (shoulders extenders) as it is very well explained in the article you propose.

I thought so...

 

But can anyone explain why the Shoulder Flex Pull is an active stretch? My only idea (still) is that it would be an assisted active stretch...

Whenever the agonist muscles are working to move the joint into the edge of your ROM, it's an active stretch. When gravity or a partner or another limb or anything else is used to move the joint to the edge of its ROM, it's a passive stretch. An active stretch is so-called because the limb is moving into the stretch position under its own power.

Passive flexibility merely requires that the antagonist muscles (those being elongated) are elastic. Active flexibility requires both elastic antagonist muscles AND agonist muscles that are strong when close to maximum contraction.

Joshua Slocum said:

Whenever the agonist muscles are working to move the joint into the edge of your ROM, it's an active stretch. When gravity or a partner or another limb or anything else is used to move the joint to the edge of its ROM, it's a passive stretch. An active stretch is so-called because the limb is moving into the stretch position under its own power.

Passive flexibility merely requires that the antagonist muscles (those being elongated) are elastic. Active flexibility requires both elastic antagonist muscles AND agonist muscles that are strong when close to maximum contraction.

Yes. Also, if someone wants to check out other forms of stretching, take a look at this website. At the end of the day they are all just labels and knowing them is not going to make you perform better on them, but still:

http://web.mit.edu/tkd/stretch/stretching_4.html#SEC31

 

Joshua Slocum said:

Whenever the agonist muscles are working to move the joint into the edge of your ROM, it's an active stretch. When gravity or a partner or another limb or anything else is used to move the joint to the edge of its ROM, it's a passive stretch. 

Right. When I do HS/PE2>iM with elbow pits facing downwards, I feel the burn in my Posterior Deltoid, the agonist muscle. When I do an Shoulder Flex Pull, I feel the stretch and strain only in the Anterior Deltoid, the antagonist muscle, because the stretch mostly comes from Gravity pulling the weight I am holding.

 

Seems definition Passive stretch, unless someone were to use their Posterior Deltoid in conjunction with Gravity to press the hands even further forward, making some kind of assisted Active stretch. But Coach Sommer just called it an Active stretch.

 

What am I missing? Please do not post anymore definitions of Passive stretching...

 

Edit: Okay, after reviewing the MIT article, SFP may not be "definition Passive Stretch", since the Shoulder Flex Pull is not "relaxed". It is static though, and while it does require the involvement of muscles, they are the ones opposite to those of an active stretch... Maybe an "Isometric Stretch"?

 

I would also just like to admit that I really don't know what I'm talking about, which is why I am asking. I don't mean to be a fire-starter or act like a know-it-all.

What exactly do you mean by shoulder flex pull? HS/PE4?

If I may compare this to Hamstring Stretches. A Y-scale would be a good example of an active stretch. The Anterior leg muscles contract to stretch the Hamstrings. A Jefferson Curl also stretches the Hamstrings, but does not require recruitment of the Anterior leg muscles because the weight pulls you into the stretch.

 

Similarly, a Manna would contract the posterior deltoid and stretch the anterior deltoid, whereas the Shoulder Flex Pull uses a weight to stretch the anterior deltoid.

 

Perhaps neither a Shoulder Flex Pull nor a Jefferson Curl would be a passive stretch, but they don't seem to fit the definition of active.

 

Edit: Though in both SFP and JC, someone could use the agonist muscles in conjunction with Gravity to increase the stretch.

This is what I mean by shoulder flex pull:

 

 

I sure am going to feel silly if no one else was on the same page as me.

Oh, I see. It looks to me like a hybrid of passive and active. It's active during the descent, when you're using the triceps and posterior delta to lift the weight behind you. The second phase of the movement, when the weight is sticking out in front of you, would be a passive stretch. Or an assisted active stretch, if you keep pulling with the agonist muscles.

A shoulder flex pull would be considered an active stretch because you should be actively contracting the shoulder extensors to try to pull the weight "up" behind you the whole time and shoul not be relying solely on gravity to stretch you. At least that's what I see in terms of muscular contraction from watching the video.