back to wall handstand vs facing wall

here is my handstand facing the wall 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzWD-QPTFy4&feature=c4-overview&list=UUMB_evAcVQO546g_I6_rN-A

here is my back to wall handstand 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKw8QLpZKus&feature=c4-overview&list=UUMB_evAcVQO546g_I6_rN-A

I would like to know in witch one I have better form in and if i should just focus on one? to me back with my finger tips touching the wall feels much harder. when I do handstands facing the wall I feel like the weight is mainly on my palms and the wall is supporting more of my weight. I read somewhere that the weight should be more on your fingers? I feel like it does feel harder when I shift the weight towards my fingers but if i do this I lose form.  if i were to move even closer until my wrists touch the wall then more weight would be on my fingers but whenever I try this i lose balance and fall. 

You have excellent alignment in both videos. You can stay stomach to wall for a long time as well so you need to learn how to balance. You need to have the pressure on your fingers so that you can squeeze the floor with your fingers to correct over balance(falling over towards your back). In the beginning it is efficient to be 1%(not literally) forwards and correct this 1% with force from the fingers gripping the floor. One exercise you can do is to go back to wall, with your hands not too far from the wall(the further the harder). Stay tight and have your feet touch the wall. Then by finger action alone press into the floor hard enough for your feet to be lifted off the wall without any body movement. You can also do this drill with 1 leg touching and 1 straight. This will work your forearms to build strength to be able to correct better.

You also need to spend a significant amount of time doing kick ups freestanding to find the required amount of force to get into a position you can balance.

Handbalancer said:

You have excellent alignment in both videos. You can stay stomach to wall for a long time as well so you need to learn how to balance. You need to have the pressure on your fingers so that you can squeeze the floor with your fingers to correct over balance(falling over towards your back). In the beginning it is efficient to be 1%(not literally) forwards and correct this 1% with force from the fingers gripping the floor. One exercise you can do is to go back to wall, with your hands not too far from the wall(the further the harder). Stay tight and have your feet touch the wall. Then by finger action alone press into the floor hard enough for your feet to be lifted off the wall without any body movement. You can also do this drill with 1 leg touching and 1 straight. This will work your forearms to build strength to be able to correct better.

 

You also need to spend a significant amount of time doing kick ups freestanding to find the required amount of force to get into a position you can balance.

thats a good exercise I tried it just now. I have one more question about scapula elevation/head position. should I try to open and elevate shoulders as much as I can?

the first video is what feels the most comfortable and easy to balance. but I feel like I can push my shoulders even higher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqK_zE_gnbw&feature=c4-overview&list=UUMB_evAcVQO546g_I6_rN-A

in this next one I elevate my shoulders until they are right in-between my head and I feel them touching my ears.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_3GLGd8cwI&feature=youtu.be

how come when i do this my form looks weird and I loose balance right away? my hips come out of alignment and body looks curved

I think that in the second video, when you tried to go from arched to hollow, you did it too quickly. This resulted in you piking and falling away from the wall. I've found it easier to peel one leg away from the wall first, then match the leg that's against the wall with it. Another good exercise would be doing the previous one, but alternating legs. (nevermind, Handbalancer suggested that already)

Also, in the second video, did you feel like you lost some protraction when you elevated your shoulders more?

One thing you could do for emphasizing technique, is when walking up the wall, start from a front support, then maintain protraction and hollowbody as you're walking up.

Handbalancer said:

You have excellent alignment in both videos. You can stay stomach to wall for a long time as well so you need to learn how to balance. You need to have the pressure on your fingers so that you can squeeze the floor with your fingers to correct over balance(falling over towards your back). In the beginning it is efficient to be 1%(not literally) forwards and correct this 1% with force from the fingers gripping the floor. One exercise you can do is to go back to wall, with your hands not too far from the wall(the further the harder). Stay tight and have your feet touch the wall. Then by finger action alone press into the floor hard enough for your feet to be lifted off the wall without any body movement. You can also do this drill with 1 leg touching and 1 straight. This will work your forearms to build strength to be able to correct better.

 

You also need to spend a significant amount of time doing kick ups freestanding to find the required amount of force to get into a position you can balance.

Does it seem like he's stacking over the heels of hands in the video? It's hard for me to tell by the angle.

gravy said:

I think that in the second video, when you tried to go from arched to hollow, you did it too quickly. This resulted in you piking and falling away from the wall. I've found it easier to peel one leg away from the wall first, then match the leg that's against the wall with it. Another good exercise would be doing the previous one, but alternating legs. (nevermind, Handbalancer suggested that already)

 

Also, in the second video, did you feel like you lost some protraction when you elevated your shoulders more?

 

One thing you could do for emphasizing technique, is when walking up the wall, start from a front support, then maintain protraction and hollowbody as you're walking up.

its hard to explain so i shot another video. first i do my normal handstand. and then i try one with the motion i was talking about. i was just wondering if it is necessary to do that as much as you can. my head goes in between my arms more and it looks like my back gets flatter. but it makes my hips pike and harder to balance. maybe its due to lack of shoulder flexibility so my hips have to compromise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3_p3nMUxpQ&feature=youtu.be

When you kick to handstand, it's easier to start from a lunge, then, while maintaining a straight line (protraction/hollow) plant your hands on the floor and kick up. If you start the motion already in a straight line, you're more likely to stay in a straight line. I also noticed that the leg that comes up first is bent. Make sure that it's straight and that your toes are pointed. Furthermore, lock out your elbows (straight arms) start to finish.

for clarity:

If you want to start with your hands on the floor, it's harder to get the proper shoulder angle, which results in arching to compensate. If you want to start with your hands on the floor, I'd recommend the tuck up to handstand.

There's a lot to keep track of, but that's what makes it challenging/fun.

thanks for the videos ill start practicing the lunge. and yeah yuval has a really nice handstand, I don't see how it could get any more strait then that.

Try out the tuck up to handstand too. Another tip for the lunge, is to keep your fingers spread out as you plant them and bend them slightly at the second knuckle. It'll give you better grip/control. (I think this is what handbalancer was referring to).

Not sure if this was posted here, but this was really helpful to me:

He talks about proper stacking over your hands/fingers, and proper alignment of your elbows over your middle knuckle.

gravy said:

Try out the tuck up to handstand too. Another tip for the lunge, is to keep your fingers spread out as you plant them and bend them slightly at the second knuckle. It'll give you better grip/control. (I think this is what handbalancer was referring to).

 

Not sure if this was posted here, but this was really helpful to me:

 

He talks about proper stacking over your hands/fingers, and proper alignment of your elbows over your middle knuckle.

yeah i tried the tuck up earlier it doest look like how yuval does it though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y4Skhq38ZI&feature=youtu.be 

but yeah I need to stop already. I get a little too obsessive about handstands lol. thanks for all the great info.

Handbalancer said:

You have excellent alignment in both videos.

I'll say.  That's got to be the most impressive wall handstand I've ever seen.

On the wall, his alignment is good because the balance component isn't emphasized. However, freestanding he's balancing on the heels of his hands. You can tell by the flatness of the knuckles, arching in the back, and incorrect shoulder angle. Even in the first hs in his video at 10:09pm, if you look closely the shoulder angle isn't exactly 180.

It's not the easiest thing to learn, but proper hand/finger technique will remedy these issues. It'll take a while to gain the awareness and proprioception, but tonito clearly has the level of strength and endurance on the wall to begin working on the lunge/kick to hs and tuck up to hs.

However, I would recommend spending more time at the wall (hands a few inches away from it) practicing the proper hand/finger technique and less time freestanding. Because it can be pretty taxing on the wrists/forearms when beginning to learn correct hand/finger technique.

Gravy, you are not correct on him being on the heel of his palms when he is freestanding. He is on his fingers, moving back and forth because he is making corrections. In the end he falls because he can not keep the finger pressure even and allows too much weight to go over. That is why he falls over in the way that he does. You literally can not fall towards your back if you are underbalancing unless you actively try to. If you are on the heels of your palms you will fall back towards your feet unless you do some seriously funky business. Arch in the back happens because the shoulder and bodyshape isnt locked and corrected at the start of the handstand and his arch deepens as his fingers give in. Fingers can remain perfectly flat even if you push, it has to do with how you curl your fingers.

For me you should work on your lunge to handstand first. Your attempt at a tuck up lets your shoulders go forwards because you lack the strength and understanding of the tuck-up. Also I would spend a significant amount of your handstand practice on freestanding precisely because you need to learn to work from your fingers and it wont teach itself, especially not regarding to catching the balance when kicking up. Combine this with the drill i mentioned earlier and further bodyline work on wall and you will see progress.

That makes sense. My bad.

thanks handbalancer and gravy 

Handbalancer said:

Gravy, you are not correct on him being on the heel of his palms when he is freestanding. He is on his fingers, moving back and forth because he is making corrections. In the end he falls because he can not keep the finger pressure even and allows too much weight to go over. That is why he falls over in the way that he does. You literally can not fall towards your back if you are underbalancing unless you actively try to. If you are on the heels of your palms you will fall back towards your feet unless you do some seriously funky business. Arch in the back happens because the shoulder and bodyshape isnt locked and corrected at the start of the handstand and his arch deepens as his fingers give in. Fingers can remain perfectly flat even if you push, it has to do with how you curl your fingers.

 

For me you should work on your lunge to handstand first. Your attempt at a tuck up lets your shoulders go forwards because you lack the strength and understanding of the tuck-up. Also I would spend a significant amount of your handstand practice on freestanding precisely because you need to learn to work from your fingers and it wont teach itself, especially not regarding to catching the balance when kicking up. Combine this with the drill i mentioned earlier and further bodyline work on wall and you will see progress.

so basically the key is all in the fingers? and if i learn to keep my finger pressure even i will be more stable and not have to make corrections? and doing the lunge will help me achieve this better then kicking up from the ground?

The key is everything lol. Everything needs to be stacked a certain way. The fingers are extremely important for balancing. But if any single component is off then the aesthetic is lost, and you become more prone to losing balance.

As for making corrections, you'll need to constantly make little corrections. That's how balance works.

The lunge makes it easier to maintain your line while getting into the hs. You still kick to hs from the lunge.