About developing a new skill...

Recently I read an article about the motor learning and how to aproach it. It says that is worth to make the effort first on imagine the skill in your mind rather than practise and practise it, because a skill done wrong not only gets recorded in the mind but also in the learning process and we learn that the wrong movement is the right by repeating it again and again. It also says that the view of the new skill should be done in a kind of slow-mo and it should be a clear one.

When the view from outside is acomplished, you should trie a "first person view", wich is way harder. It is like to learing how to grab an object, first you try without looking at the hand you are going to use and after looking at it, the second attempt will be much easier. That is because the vision is one of the senses that makes posible to have notions of distance and directions.

So by imagine it we just must do mental corrections until it will be perfectly done in our mind without get overtrained or even injuried. But that is just one part of the work, now we have to go to the execution part, where the brain already knows the moves that should be done and it has to give the right orders to the muscles to execute it proplerty. The first feeling will be some kind of inability, but thats because the execution of the movement is faster than the brain can think about it and give the right order to the muscles. By practcising it and also going back to the mental part will build a strong register of the new skill.

As a bboy I am constantly learning new skills, and by trying that methodz I achieved some nice results, its surprising how hard is to imagine from outside how some nice windmills ,for example, are, but by doing that work the skill will be much easier and you get it much quickly.

I also found that sometimes when u learn a skill and you think you got it, the next day you go to practise it you just lost it, and its quite disgusting beeing excited about a new skill and later by whatever you just dont have it.

What u guys think about it and what are your strategies to learn new skills? I found the article quite interesting so I wanted to share, I hope it helps anyone that is learning new things.

Mental imagery is an important training tool in gymnastics.

Mental imagery is essential for higher level athletic skills; but it's next to useless until you have the proper background and training to properly "feel" the skill you are imagining being performed. Until you have physically performed the skill hundreds of times, you will be unable to consistently and correctly reference the skill in your mind. There is no substitute for experience. Unfortunately the only way to gain experience, is through the process of making mistakes .

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I've read a few books that talked about mental imagery and how to use it to your advantage in various aspects of life. My favorite being Psycho-cybernetics, I highly recommend it. I really believe that it works and can help you practice a skill when you're not in the required environment to physically practice.

I can't recall the source at this moment, but I've also read about a study that checked three groups free-throw shooting ability in basketball, then had one group practice physically for a certain number of weeks, one group practice solely by mental imagery, and the third group didn't practice at all. When they were retested, the group that practiced through mental imagery improved their shooting percentage at almost the same rate as the group that practiced physically, and both groups obviously improved over the third group that didn't practice. Very interesting stuff.

What about training a skill too much? Sometimes when I see no improvement I just stop repeating it. Once read (I think it was here) that a skill should be practised for X repetitions and set a goal of do it well of Y times. If you do the skill the Y times before reaching the maximum X you should stop practise it, and also u should stop if you reach the maximum X and you dont complete the goal Y. It makes real sense to me because before knowing it sometimes I get mad tryng to correct mistakes, but It seems that the brain didnt wanted to work too much that day

The German wikipedia article on lucid dreaming (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klartraum) talks about Paul Tholey researching training movements during lucid dreams. However, it only says he researched it and nothing about the outcome of the research. Does anybody here know anything about this?

palmcron said:

The German wikipedia article on lucid dreaming (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klartraum) talks about Paul Tholey researching training movements during lucid dreams. However, it only says he researched it and nothing about the outcome of the research. Does anybody here know anything about this?

I searched my school's article database for Paul Tholey and lucid dreaming. Two articles came up in English, the rest were German. The first study was in 1983, the second was in 1989. Here are the abstracts, pasted respectively:

Five students were trained to induce lucid dreams through the author's (e.g., 1980) reflection technique, through which Ss can become aware that they are dreaming and feel themselves to have control of their intellectual and motivational abilities. Observation of 24 lucid dreams indicated that Ss were able to change their direction of looking in the prescribed manner and that looking movements in general had no other influence on dream events. Fixation on a stationary point in the dream imagery caused the Ss to awaken, and Ss were able to carry out and observe movements of their hands and fingers. Results allow rejection of hypotheses that certain brain centers produce a fixed pattern of eye movements and that there is a strict correlation between eye movements and the movements of visual objects in a dream. (11 ref) (PsycINFO Database Record © 2008 APA, all rights reserved)

In phenomenological experiments with 9 male experienced lucid dreamers, the authors examined the cognitive accomplishments performed by dream characters (DCs) in lucid dreams. Ss set different tasks to DCs they met during lucid dreams, including drawing or writing, naming unknown words, finding rhyming words, making verses, and solving arithmetic problems. Some DCs actually agreed to perform the tasks and were successful, although arithmetic performance was poor. Phenomenological findings suggest that DCs have consciousness in a specific sense and in dream communication should be treated as rational beings. (PsycINFO Database Record © 2008 APA, all rights reserved)

I found an article relating back to my point about the efficacy of mental imagery. It's from the Journal of Sports Psychology in 1982. Here's the abstract:

To investigate the mental imagery aspect of mental rehearsal, 80 male traffic officers (mean age 36 yrs) learned a novel balancing task during a single session. Ss were categorized as imagers, nonimagers, or occasional imagers and assigned to 1 of 6 groups. It was hypothesized that an S's preferred cognitive style would prove most effective for use in mental rehearsal and that using another style would cause a decrement in learning. No differences were found between Ss who initially reported typically using imagery and those who did not, but groups asked to use imagery in mental rehearsal were superior to those asked not to. Overall, physical practice was better than the grouped mental rehearsal conditions, and both were better than no practice. Ss reporting strong visual imagery were superior to those with weak visual images, and those reporting strong kinesthetic imagery were superior to those with weak kinesthetic images. Regardless of one's typical cognitive style, the use of vivid imagery appears quite important for enhancement of motor performance through mental rehearsal. (14 ref) (PsycINFO Database Record © 2008 APA, all rights reserved)

Their argument that rehearsal using strong kinesthetic imagery was the most effective method of imagery goes back to the point that Coach Sommer made about needing to practice the skill hundreds of times before using imagery to rehearse while you're not in the gym. Although, they do make the point that mental rehearsal is better than no rehearsal at all.

I think the take home message is work hard in the gym and use mental rehearsal at home if you want to improve as rapidly as you are capable.

Coach Sommer said:

There is no substitute for experience.

Don't agree (in respect to mental training) but I'm way too tired to elaborate more on this.

Regarding lucid dreaming: I once found a dissertation covering the matter on the internet but don't have it anymore. Still online is this paper which indicates that there is a connection between skills performed in lucid dreaming and real skill development.

I used to practice music by mental imagery (I was an organist) as do many musicians. I remember one particular lucid dream where I saw, heard and felt everything as though I were actually in the concert hall, right down to the patterns in the woodgrain on the console. The only difference was that I maintained awareness that it was a simulation and of my true location. I had fallen asleep with the intent to practice and I can say definitively that this type of training DOES help. I remember my disappointment at being awoken by a phone call because that kind of concentration is hard to recapture. I also had a colleauge who would routinely memorize his music through mental practice, often before he even touched the keyboards.

Noxxs said:

Don't agree (in respect to mental training) but I'm way too tired to elaborate more on this.

I don't really think you can make the argument that mental training is more effective than actual training. This theory is also disproved by the study I posted above.

I found the basketball study I must've been thinking about in my earlier post, unless there is another one out there that the book I was reading was referencing.

The study is called, "The effect of visuo-motor behavior rehearsal with videotaped modeling on free throw accuracy of intercollegiate female basketball players."

It claims that there was a greater improvement in skill by the group that observed a videotaped model than there was by the group that practiced visualization only. Does anyone know anything about this? I watch all sorts of videos and would much rather do that than visualization, personally.

The study also backs up Coach Sommer's statement that mental rehearsal is more effective for performers with relatively high levels of skill.

Here's the abstract:

10 female college basketball players received 5 daily 30-min training sessions in progressive relaxation and visual imagery related to foul shooting. Over the next 5 days of training, Ss continued relaxation and visualization exercises or also observed a videotaped model. Following a 5-day fading period to reduce Ss' dependence on the videotape, Ss' foul shooting performance was compared to preintervention baseline. Ss in the modeling condition showed a significant improvement in performance relative to Ss in the relaxation/visualization-only condition. All Ss in the modeling condition also reported feeling kinesthetic sensations in association with visual imagery. Findings indicate that the use of visual cues through modeling may provide a means of enhancing visuo-motor behavior rehearsal and support the suggestion that most forms of mental rehearsal are more effective for performers with relatively high levels of skill. (10 ref) (PsycINFO Database Record © 2008 APA, all rights reserved)

I do not wish to denigrate the importance of visualization; it is indeed an essential tool in the arsenal of the elite athlete. However in my experience, most beginners over-analyze their training and, through a desire to "fast track" their progress, wish to insert all of the bells and whistles, when in the long run they would be better served by simply focusing on old fashioned, monotonous, hard work.

Visualization is easily effective for lower level skills that are common and easily understood through comparison with the subject's previous physical experiences; however the more complex the athletic skill, the more actual physical practice will be required. Technically incorrect visualizations will ultimately impair progress. There is no such thing as a free ride; else all of the day dreaming arm chair athletes in the world would be Olympic Caliber Champions. They may believe that they are correctly visualizing how a complex skill is performed; but in actuality their visualizations are usually far short of the physical reality.

The degree to which visualization will be physically effective is also extremely dependent on the degree to which your imaginings are able to be neurologically specific. Unless you have extensive experience (muscularly, visually, kinesthetically, tactually, emotionally, psychologically) with actually physically performing the skill and are able to engage the mind and central nervous system simultaneously to such a degree that the gap between imagination and reality is quite narrow, most will find that visualization of new complex skills is a relatively ineffective tool and they would be better off simply exploring the parameters of the skill through physically performing another repetition.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

I do not wish to denigrate the importance of visualization; it is indeed an essential tool in the arsenal of the elite athlete. However in my experience, most beginners over-analyze their training and, through a desire to "fast track" their progress, wish to insert all of the bells and whistles, when in the long run they would be better served by simply focusing on old fashioned, monotonous, hard work.

Visualization is easily effective for lower level skills that are common and easily understood through comparison with the subject's previous physical experiences; however the more complex the athletic skill, the more actual physical practice will be required. Technically incorrect visualizations will ultimately impair progress. There is no such thing as a free ride; else all of the day dreaming arm chair athletes in the world would be Olympic Caliber Champions. They may believe that they are correctly visualizing how a complex skill is performed; but in actuality their visualizations are usually far short of the physical reality.

The degree to which visualization will be physically effective is also extremely dependent on the degree to which your imaginings are able to be neurologically specific. Unless you have extensive experience (muscularly, visually, kinesthetically, tactually, emotionally, psychologically) with actually physically performing the skill and are able to engage the mind and central nervous system simultaneously to such a degree that the gap between imagination and reality is quite narrow, most will find that visualization of new complex skills is a relatively ineffective tool and they would be better off simply exploring the parameters of the skill through physically performing another repetition.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I totaly agree and I don't know what to add

"Technically incorrect visualizations will ultimately impair progress." That could be a big problem, and it is not incommon for young competitive gymnasts.

Hi

I dont think i can add more to what has already been said cumulatively, but my opinion is that visualization is really hardly ever done enough or well enough to actual have a decent effect, or correctly. There is a famous example of this war verteran that taught himself how to play golf in a POW camp, by killing time playing an 18hole game of golf everyday in his head. He had never played it or even held a club before. However he just put things together from pictures, and stuff he had seen on real. Funny enough when he got out and tried golf for the first time he wasn't to bad at all, and progressed quickly. If anyone has played golf its not easy at the begining to just pick up a club and go. There a lots and lots of example of people teaching themselves skills, complex motor tasks without ever having done them, all though imagery, and visualization.

most beginners over-analyze their training and, through a desire to "fast track" their progress, wish to insert all of the bells and whistles, when in the long run they would be better served by simply focusing on old fashioned, monotonous, hard work

There is a 1/2 truth to this in my opinion, because as a coach, or practitioner your the goal is to improve performance, and imagery and visualization are well research and proven techniques that work. The problem with them being applied to beginners is that beginners:

1- Do not do it enough, or practice it correctly

2- They lack the physiological preparation

I believe (with reason) that the mind has to be able to see it first before you can do it. This is in support of what coach said that Elite athletes get the most of it. However i think its inaccurate to say that a beginner is better of not using imagery and just sticking to good old fashion hard work. If you want ultimate results and improvements you would use both.

Valentin said:

However i think its inaccurate to say that a beginner is better of not using imagery and just sticking to good old fashion hard work. If you want ultimate results and improvements you would use both.

A beginner will only be performing relatively easy skills. Coach said visualization would be helpful for easy tasks.

• "Visualization is easily effective for lower level skills that are common and easily understood through comparison with the subject's previous physical experiences"

• "most beginners over-analyze their training and, through a desire to "fast track" their progress, wish to insert all of the bells and whistles, when in the long run they would be better served by simply focusing on old fashioned, monotonous, hard work"

is that a beginner who is working on a planche will make the mistake of spending a significant amount of time visualizing a full planche when he would be better served spending that time physically working on frog stands.

Easy is a relative term. Just because a handstand is easy for one person doesn't mean its easy for another. How does that incorporate into the equation?

"is that a beginner who is working on a planche will make the mistake of spending a significant amount of time visualizing a full planche when he would be better served spending that time physically working on frog stands.".. That is an example of my point. THe beginner in this example is visualizing the wrong thing, plus what is significant amount of time (is 10min before bed significant? is 30sec before a set significiant? I don't like undefined terms i guess.

What i am saying is that the beginner will get better results if he works on the frog stand like he is supposed to +spend whatever time he is prepared to invest regularly on visualizing himself working on the frogstand and holding it and so on.

Visualisation is more inportant in more complex exercises then planche...Like double straight backward, for planche you need just work, becuse it is not alot movement involed in there.

This is a great thread. We use lots of visualization in rock climbing and after reading through these posts I noticed that when I was just starting to climb I would visualize myself getting to the top of the climb. The specific movements before that point were unknown to me and even as I progressed in the first few years I lacked the foundation of experience needed to visualize the intricate movements necessary to reach the top. Now when I climb I am no longer visualizing the end of the climb. Most of this time is spent 'feeling' the specific holds, how my fingers will grip them, in what order, etc.

Being new to gymnastics conditioning I am repeating the same visualization pattern...I see myself in a full planche or lever. I've done this so much that in my dreams I've performed these moves. What I am noticing is that early on, before I have the requisite experience, these visualizations serve to be excellent motivators to practice, practice, practice and then practice some more but they do not bring many (if any) breakthroughs in performance that I notice.

In my experience visualization is a very fluid, dynamic training technique that changes with experience. I can't explain to a client I am teaching how to climb that by pulling with your fingers extended and just the tips on the rock will give you better balance, they need to feel this for themselves. Just like nobody could tell me that plank training will have virtually no carryover to performing a planche. I had to try that for weeks until I found this website.