Mobility Issues (HS/PE2>iM)

Hi All!

So I just purchased Handstand One and Foundation One.  I like to think of myself as fairly stronger than average (all from a barbell background) and I have "fooled around" with hand stands and body weight work for fun and wanted to actually take a serious go at training for strength on the rings.

I am following coach's series as stated in his introduction and very much looking forward to being at the RINGS 1 level.

I was expecting to test out to around the 10 second hand stand as I can often manage a 10-30 second free standing handstand without walking, can do a frog stand press to hand stand, and have managed a free standing handstand pushup on occasion.

To my chagrin I can't test our of HS/PE2>iM due to having just about zero flexibility... see video (unlisted on youtube) where I show hands at shoulder width and then around a foot wider on each side

This is very discouraging.  I have a few questions:

1) Are max effort holds at the wide grip enough to stretch?  I presume I will then keep keep narrowing until I am at the level of the video demonstration and then I can move on?

2) Should I also do static stretches that do not involve active muscle contraction?  I saw people say not to do German hangs.  A second suggestion was to take a weight behind me and then pike over until gravity pulls my arms into the stretch, but my hamstrings are not flexible enough for that (I can't hold a toe touch).  The only other thing I can think of is to put my hands on a counter and squat down keeping torso vertical.

3) Do i need to stop doing handstands until I can resolve this? 

Look at your hand position and compare it to the instructional video, and then turn them around. Start wide enough to be able to get the arms parallel to the floor and work your way in over time. Don't force it, just stay at it and you'll  most likely notice improvements within a few weeks.

Hi Joshua, welcome aboard!

I'll try to answer to your questions, but first of all, the grip you're using is incorrect. If you watch the video in the course, the athlete has the dorsal part of the hand toward the external, not facing the back (I don't know if this can be called over-grip). Anyway, just pay attention to hands placement and position and you'll surely see the difference with your video!

however:

1) Definitely useful. You should work with hands width and bar weight that allows you to reach the ROM in the video, then you'll start the journey to narrower the grip and up the weight. This will take a good amount of time and effort, but you'll definitely be successful someday.

2) I suppose this is different from person to person, but for me it works very well to improve my passive flexibility in the position. I'm currently doing the last two exercise that you mentioned in your post and I found that my progress are going faster than before, i'm capable of doing them with full ROM, shoulder width grip and 3 lbs (the very minimum). So for me, go for it, pair your active flexibility work with passive flexibility

3)Again, I think would be the best bang for buck if you focus your efforts in mastering the basics and the first PE's instead of reinforcing bad handstand habits. Does it mean that from time to time you shouldn't play around with handstand and see your progress? of course not. Just don't plan to do it consistently, rather focus on pair your shoulders and thoracic mobility. In two words, follow Coach Sommer program as written and you'll be, in the right time, a perfect and proficient handbalancers.

Thanks for the feedback! I can't believe I didn't notice the difference in grip -that is embarrassing. I'll look at that more closely.

I will decrease the amount of hand standing to a minmun as advised (I had been doing about 6 hours a week prior to purchase)

I'll show you my progress after my first cycle if anybody is interested

Hi Joshua

Personally, I didn't get anywhere with this exercise before I started stretching passively as well. I am currently doing 3x30 secs of the bent over stretch you where talking about, which is very beneficial since it works your hamstrings at the same time. You will get better at this stretch in time, and it is well worth the effort. Doing it with +10 kgs is quite an interesting experience >.<

I also do 3x30 seconds german hang, but this capacity was worked up to in a slow manner in conjunction with back lever work before I started F1/H1. Proceed with german hangs at your own peril, and if you do, start with the rings at a height where you can reach the floor with your feet, so you can control the load on the elbows. Ease into full german hangs over a period of several months.

I don't agree that you should quit freestanding handstand until they are introduced in H1. I would personally just try to improve the handstand using the new gained flexibility from F1/H1, and also try to apply the cues that you can read about here on the forum: open shoulders, hollow midsection, joints stacked on top of each other, trying to occasionally watch your pointed toes while in handstand etc.

Thanks Ravn,

I tried to do the bent over stretch and I do not have the ability to press the weight beyond my center of gravity.

I then had the idea to take a plate and put my bar through it and lean over with my arms farther apart allowing me to get them up and over the center of gravity and start pulling me down.   This seems to work nicely and gives my hamstrings a nice stretch as you said.

I have never held a german hang;I can lower myself with control into one with control and pull out which is all I've ever done.  I'll give it a go - if it hurts my elbows I will not do it until I am more flexible.  

Thanks

Josh- just want to let you know that I am going through the same thing. I was able to do 5x60 on my head with no problem (thank you very much, Capoeira), but the ROM in the IM is just pitiful. I remember thinking, "can anyone do this? Is it even possible?" Right now I have to grasp the very outer edge of the bar to pull this off and it's still challenging.

It's also annoying because I don't really want to be stuck doing 5 minutes of headstands every time I do a handstand workout (my neck is definitely not a fan).

IcedDante said:

Josh- just want to let you know that I am going through the same thing. I was able to do 5x60 on my head with no problem (thank you very much, Capoeira), but the ROM in the IM is just pitiful. I remember thinking, "can anyone do this? Is it even possible?" Right now I have to grasp the very outer edge of the bar to pull this off and it's still challenging.

 

It's also annoying because I don't really want to be stuck doing 5 minutes of headstands every time I do a handstand workout (my neck is definitely not a fan).

cycling through weeks 9-12 would make your neck a fan

IcedDante said:

Josh- just want to let you know that I am going through the same thing. I was able to do 5x60 on my head with no problem (thank you very much, Capoeira), but the ROM in the IM is just pitiful. I remember thinking, "can anyone do this? Is it even possible?" Right now I have to grasp the very outer edge of the bar to pull this off and it's still challenging.

 

It's also annoying because I don't really want to be stuck doing 5 minutes of headstands every time I do a handstand workout (my neck is definitely not a fan).

I may be totally wrong here, but since the headstand was very easy for me, I am just doing handstand, then PE2>iM, then handstand, and so on. Feels more productive than to spend endless amount of time on a PE that is essentially mastered.

Btw, I can lift to horizontal now with 1.5 kgs, arms at shoulder width, I just need to increase the weight. I am shooting for 10 kgs to claim mastery, but we'll see. Those stretches have made a big difference.

Ravn said:

I may be totally wrong here, but since the headstand was very easy for me, I am just doing handstand, then PE2>iM, then handstand, and so on. Feels more productive than to spend endless amount of time on a PE that is essentially mastered.

That's actually a great idea, thanks.

I discovered a little trick that seems to be working really well for me. Instead of a weighted bar, I'm using a heavy resistance band. I'll hold it at the recommended width under a gentle amount of tension and start to raise my arms. As I reach my natural ROM my arms drift out and I can raise my arms higher. I have two options at this point:

One is I can stay at this new height, try to let my shoulders relax so that my hands start to drift back to shoulder width and I can then go higher.

Two: I can continue on to horizontal and work on letting my hands come together there.

What I really like about working with the band is that it creates the horizontal tension that works towards keeping your hands closer together. If those of you that are struggling with this mobility try this way I would love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks for the idea IcedDante, i was in search of an other way to do this exercise with a more "morphologic adaptation objects" and i think the band could be the way to go because the tension is an adaptation of the level of flexibility.

I'm gonna try this week and post a feedback soon.

The main reason not to progress the training (i.e. handstand) ahead of the integrated mobility component, is with skill work, you are only going to be reinforcing bad habits.  While you no doubt have the strength to hold a solid handstand, it won't be of the same form as you would have with good mobility.  You are therefore only going to be confusing your muscle memory.  It is a little humbling to have to step back from what you are capable of strengthwise, but it is well worth it in the long run if you want good form.  You mentioned that your goal is to work on the rings elements?  Mobility is vital to the rings if you want to succeed both technically and without injury.  Just think of mobility as another strength component, as that is what it is.  you are weak in particular muscles at a particular range of motion.  Don't keep trying to strengthen your strong muscles!  I would suggest keeping on with the headstands or whichever PE matches the iM that you are struggling with in order to achieve the correct balance.  If you can bench 200lbs but only squat 20lbs what should you spend more time at the gym working on?