Losing Size

Kasper Stangerup said:

This sounds like the kind of study I was referring to. I do know that you are a physiology professional, so I'm not doing anything other than repeating what I have been told (which I would argue is all you can ever do, unless you do the study your self). 

 

Regarding the time frame, the original poster was worried over potential size loss until the excercises in F1 become sufficiently challenging. From his description it sounds as if he is quite strong, so he should be able to test out of a few of the PEs and soon find himself doing excercises that are sufficiently challenging. So, I would estimate a timeframe of about 4-8 months. 

 

When I was partially paralyzed from a neck-injury some years ago, the affected muscles deflated in almost no time (I couldn't tense them at all, so loss of muscle tone was doubtless part of it). The condition persisted for some months, after which I began rehab and then, after a few more months, real strength training. It only took about three months from this point for me to reach my previous level of strength and size. 

A similar course of events took place earlier in my life, in connection with a semi-serious disease which caused me to be bed-ridden but unable to sleep and with almost zero appetite for a prolonged period. I lost about 20 % of my bodyweight (and I was lean to begin with), and had to put a pillow on my chair because my glutes were almost gone. 

However, once I had recovered from the disease itself, I regained my strength and size within about 6 months.

1) Agreed, though being exposed to a whole lot of different research and forming a sort of complete construct based on what we know so far) can help immensely with understanding what is going on with responses to exercise. I just try not to ever repeat what I am told without doing everything I can to dig into the topic first, to make sure my knowledge is either as complete as possible or to be sure it is up to date... so much changes as we keep learning, it's very hard to keep up with all of it when you follow multiple subjects!

2) That sounds really rough man, I hope you don't ever have to deal with that kind of situation again!

I don't think the OP has much to worry about, but if he is still unsatisfied I would suggest hitting a double or triple for one set with a working weight each training session, probably in the warm up. That will be enough to maintain strength while making one's way through the Foundation products, and won't wear you out or get your hurt.

Someone asked for stats.

 I'm 5'4" 130lbs around 8% body fat.  FYI, I have been strength training with weights  and bodyweight exercises for 7 years now.

Here are a few of my PR's of the top of my head. It can give you an idea of my strength level, but as far as gymnast holds are concerned I'm a beginner.

2xBW Deadlifts for reps

Ring Pull-Ups BW+50lbs for reps

 

for reps

how many?

strongyetagile said:

Personally I couldn't stay away from the weight lifting world forever as I love deadlifting so I plan to have a separate powerlifting cycle for it altogether with calisthenics thrown in as accessory exercises

Have you considered 5/3/1 with foundation as assistance exercises?

If the 5/3/1 you mean is the one from Wendler, I think that it would be tough to see F1 just as accessory work for it.

The data say that he is strong, but 2BW for reps DL does not tell you anything about efficiency, which I feel is in a way more important to determine at which level of specialization he is.

federicoC said:

If the 5/3/1 you mean is the one from Wendler, I think that it would be tough to see F1 just as accessory work for it.

The data say that he is strong, but 2BW for reps DL does not tell you anything about efficiency, which I feel is in a way more important to determine at which level of specialization he is.

I doubt 5/3/1 being possible right from the get go to implement into Foundation. I think Starting Strength may work because of it's simplism. I personally think expect to see just experimenting 1 day at a time with adding any sort of weight lifting to see how it tolls on performance. If it does, how much intensity? Volume? Reps? Sets? Weight? Tempo? My theory is that adding in powerlifitng style of training 1 day at a time, per week, per adding an additional day of WL work, per a GST Foundation cycle can possibly work.

Eventually after 4 cycles which should be a year, you should have fully integrated 4 days weight lifting with gymnastic work which should suffice for recovery because you slowly allowed your body to adapt to the stress levels. After that, I would theorize additional single days tacked on would needed an adaption time period of 2 GST Foundation cycles thus putting you at 6 days of WL work at a second year. From there..I just do not know.

Perhaps playing with the acute variables while your body adapts over 2 yrs will possibly create a new program to be integrated with GST for specific hypertrophy gains...granted that Coach doesn't throw in intensive ring work that most of us want to do for impressive feats of strength, but we may have to sacrifice slowly weight lifting altogether as our bodies adapt to that. aha

Everything in attempts to include gymnastics is such a slow pace.    

If you want to use a PL approach, I'd go for quality work, e.g. use a MAV.

federicoC said:

how many?

around 3-4 reps is usually what I mean when I say "for reps"

Ok, this means that your result is remarkable but overall an average one you can expect after some years of weight training. 2BW x3-4 reps, depending on your efficiency, may translate in a max of ~300 (135kg). PLers I know in your BW category lift between 160 and 180kg, to give you a reference.

If you're like me you will likely maintain most of your size, especially if you add in a few MUs here and there.

One of the major things I've found with Foundation is that, as your skill and real strength improves, the confidence void (not the emotionally unhealthy kind or anything ) that was once filled with muscular size is more than taken care of by the strength, skill, and throughly muscled physique you develop.  You might lose some size, but you'll be developing muscles you didn't even know you had (especially around the shoulder girdle), and before long you'll be on pretty advanced moves that should stimulate even more growth.

I also find that doing some chest expanders each day (as suggested by Joshua Naterman's Chest Expanders for Shoulder Stability) keeps the muscular tone of the back and shoulders up while doing wonders for shoulder pain and posture.  I've been doing these daily for about two years now and rarely if ever miss a day.

 

I also find that doing some chest expanders each day (as suggested by Joshua Naterman's Chest Expanders for Shoulder Stability)

cool, could you please post the link?

Why not try Olympic lifting?

You need great coordination, flexibity and explosive power. You also will not increase your muscle mass too much. Olympic lifting would compliment gymnastics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkajqbmzzgo.

It also comes up with a google search for "chest expanders for shoulder stability".  A search for "Fix your shoulder pain" will also bring you to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnAsnVNh0C0, which is another JN video demonstrating stretches I do every day to keep my shoulders feeling great.  Wonderful compliment to the expanders.  

federicoC said:

Just to tell you a bit more, I am not an "expert", I am just doing my PhD (3rd year) in ETH Zurich. Should you want to have a closer look, here is a link to our website: http://www.bsse.ethz.ch/egg

 

Our interest within epigenetics is more on the basic mechanisms underlying maintenance of cellular identity, e.g. the role of PcG (Polycomb) / trx (trithorax) group proteins in determining cell fate. Particularly, my personal interest is on how established patterns of gene regulation are challenged by DNA replication and how do they survive this genome-wide process that requires disruption and accurate reassembly of chromatin structure at each and every cell cycle. Overall, I am a computational biologist with a biology (biotech) background, so I can basically cover a broad range of subjects with decent depth.

 

Coming back to your question. I can tell you that to my knowledge there is no clear picture yet. The field of environmental epigenetics, whereby an external stimulus is integrated at chromatin and possibly trans-generationally inherited, is very controversial. It is true, certainly true, that environmental stimuli do modulate classical epigenetic patterns such as changes in histone modifications or extent of DNA methylation of CpG islands. However, one has to be extremely careful in distinguishing between changes that occur very rapidly, and hence that can transiently affect chromatin (e.g. transcriptional readouts) from changes that can be memorized (namely, that at least survive the cell cycle and are established either de novo or from templating processes). 

 

If you want me to be more precise, you can maybe give me the original references you read. I'll be happy (and interested) in having a closer look.

Blah, blah, blah...Am I going to lose muscle doing Foundation or what?

Sorry if I sound like blah, blah, blah. In case, let me know and we can dissect the concepts in details.

My rough guess is no. You can think about effective ways of complementing the work, especially for the legs.

federicoC said:

Sorry if I sound like blah, blah, blah. In case, let me know and we can dissect the concepts in details.

My rough guess is no. You can think about effective ways of complementing the work, especially for the legs.

That was very much tongue-in-cheek.  I'm very interested in the subject matter (recreationally speaking), and I've enjoyed the conversation.  I apologize if that sentiment was unclear.  

Sure. No problem and thanks for the clarification!

Jasper said:

I started F1 and H1 in about March and, although I think I'm making pretty slow progress through the elements, I'm definitely gaining size in my upper body.

My biceps look bigger than before and feel really round and full, my shoulders look much wider than before, and are especially significantly improved in the rear delt. My traps are much improved (probably mostly down to H1 PE1 IM!) and I actually have visible abs and obliques for the first time ever. Not great ones but abs nonetheless.

Granted I probably wasn't as fit as you when I started this, and I didn't want this post to be about me congratulating myself, but I just wanted to share with any doubters that this program does build muscle as well as strength and flexibility.

What were you doing before you started? Were you doing the WODs or just regular weight stuff?