Recommended tempo template for F2 RC?

Having worked almost all of the F2 RC progressions at earlier points in my training career, I'm fairly sure I could test through them in one or two months with good ROM. However, I'm not seeking to rush the progressions, I want to really milk the exercises for strength gains. Besides what's the point of blasting through the curriculum, when F3 isn't out yet?

I've found that a tempo of 3-1-3-1 takes the difficulty up a notch, several notches actually. Among other things, this tempo more or less doubles the TUT in comparison to my preferred tempo (i.e. comfort zone) which is something like 2-0-2-0. It also feels like the biceps are forced to work disproportionately harder during slow tempos, but this is just a hunch. 

So my question is, what would be a good overall tempo template for the RC drills, and also F2 HBP when I eventually get there? I think that a brief static hold at the top of every rep would be a good marker of strict form, and also prepare the elbows for more strenuous work. However, when will the point of diminishing returns kick in? No need to go through the discomfort of spending 10 seconds/rep at the top of the bar/rings, if it does not bring additional benefits. 

I am using 3111. I see no point slowing down the concentric position because less motor units and muscle fibers will be firing and as a result will lead to less progress in strength. This as a general rule.

I see. I take it you mean the eccentric, i.e. negative, part of the rep?

But slow negatives are often employed as a strength building method though, right? For instance F1 & 2 features several slow negative exercises as intermediate steps between pullups, dips etc., so I would expect that some benefit accrue to (relatively) slow negatives in general.

Anyway, I should probably read some Poliquin, but thought it would be easier to just ask on the forum 

Ravn said:

I see. I take it you mean the eccentric, i.e. negative, part of the rep?

 

But slow negatives are often employed as a strength building method though, right? For instance F1 & 2 features several slow negative exercises as intermediate steps between pullups, dips etc., so I would expect that some benefit accrue to (relatively) slow negatives in general.

 

Anyway, I should probably read some Poliquin, but thought it would be easier to just ask on the forum 

I am talking about the concentric contraction. Slowing down the eccentrics is very productive for developing strength & size. But wth the tempo you talked about, 3131 tempo, the third number(3131) refers to concentric contraction, and if it takes 3 seconds to pull yourself up for example in a pull-up, you are most likely slowing down the concentric part on purpose, which I do not recommend.

depending on your current level you can use some tempo strategy to improve your strength. for example during the RC movement you can maintain the top position of the last rep for some seconds before doing a slow negative.

Same thing for the hbp progression, you can maintain the bottom position of a dip before the last ascent movement.

Ok, so in conclusion, something like the below would be reasonable?

Fast concentric:   ~1 sec

Static hold:           ~1-3 sec

Slow eccentric:    ~3-5 sec

Static hold:           ~1-3 sec

Ravn said:

Ok, so in conclusion, something like the below would be reasonable?

 

Fast concentric:   ~1 sec

Static hold:           ~1-3 sec

Slow eccentric:    ~3-5 sec

Static hold:           ~1-3 sec

Looks reasonable to me. You are not supposed to try to perform the concentric as fast as possible(which could cost some form) but perform it without purposely slowing it down. Concentrics usually take 1-2 sec for me, depending on difficulty of the exercise.

Excellent, got it. 

Now excuse me, while I go train.

As another thought, I'm having a lot of fun following Josh Slocum's hybrid exercise choice--

Wide arm pullup, lower to 90 degrees, lat fly, behind the neck pullup. Lower down to hang only after both.

That's one rep, and it's having a nice and rapid effect on the active flexibility part of my behind the neck pullup. Plus I end up with 1.5-2x the reps by the end of a given set, and I can feel my lats stretching when I walk back from the park.

Edit;

Not paying attention to the concentric or eccentric tempo other than ensuring I don't use any momentum, and taking a second static hold at the top and bottom.

Charm said:

As another thought, I'm having a lot of fun following Josh Slocum's hybrid exercise choice--

Wide arm pullup, lower to 90 degrees, lat fly, behind the neck pullup. Lower down to hang only after both.

 

That's one rep, and it's having a nice and rapid effect on the active flexibility part of my behind the neck pullup. Plus I end up with 1.5-2x the reps by the end of a given set, and I can feel my lats stretching when I walk back from the park.

 

Edit;

Not paying attention to the concentric or eccentric tempo other than ensuring I don't use any momentum, and taking a second static hold at the top and bottom.

Actually, what I originally envisioned was not lowering to hang until you'd completed all the reps. If you do go to a hang after the btn pullup, make sure you're completing the lat fly first (a complete lat-fly is shoulders all the way back and then all the way forwards, so you do 1/2 after each pullup).

Joshua Slocum said:

Actually, what I originally envisioned was not lowering to hang until you'd completed all the reps. If you do go to a hang after the btn pullup, make sure you're completing the lat fly first (a complete lat-fly is shoulders all the way back and then all the way forwards, so you do 1/2 after each pullup).

I see. My issue with that is not lowering to hang between reps; feels I am compromising ROM. You don't think that's a consideration?

Charm said:

I see. My issue with that is not lowering to hang between reps; feels I am compromising ROM. You don't think that's a consideration?

Eh, I'd play around with both and see how they feel. ROM is a consideration that I had not thought of. The advantage to not coming down is that your muscles are spending time under tension for the entire set, so it's quite a stimulus. 

Joshua Slocum said:

Eh, I'd play around with both and see how they feel. ROM is a consideration that I had not thought of. The advantage to not coming down is that your muscles are spending time under tension for the entire set, so it's quite a stimulus. 

Fair enough. I'll give the concept some more playtime

Charm, are you using that approach to achieve mastery of behind-the-neck pullups?

Ravn said:

Charm, are you using that approach to achieve mastery of behind-the-neck pullups?

Having done it already, I'm more using as a way to kill time productively while waiting for my rope/F3 release

Joshua Slocum said:

Eh, I'd play around with both and see how they feel. ROM is a consideration that I had not thought of. The advantage to not coming down is that your muscles are spending time under tension for the entire set, so it's quite a stimulus. 

Tried them as you said today--- the words 'time under tension' sound so innocuous on paper, don't they?

Nice touch. I prefer the pullup, fly, btn pullup, fly back to protraction and down to dead hang to any other configuration, and regard that four-step sequence as one long rep, at a steady pace with no momentum.

Thanks again for that, it's going great. Between these and 5x30x2 flag supports I hit a genuine grip failure today for the first time in quite a while.

Joshua Slocum said:

Eh, I'd play around with both and see how they feel. ROM is a consideration that I had not thought of. The advantage to not coming down is that your muscles are spending time under tension for the entire set, so it's quite a stimulus. 

I'm not an expert, but I think I've read somewhere that pull-ups should always be done with a full ROM, down to a hang between reps. Not doing so could cause muscle shortening over time, and the associated issues of that, according to what I read. I don't remember the source though.

Erik Rissanen said:

I'm not an expert, but I think I've read somewhere that pull-ups should always be done with a full ROM, down to a hang between reps. Not doing so could cause muscle shortening over time, and the associated issues of that, according to what I read. I don't remember the source though.

I am approaching more as a longer rep, descending to a full hang beween two shorter ROM pulls. Add that to full ROM rows/pullups in warmup and I can't see it being a problem.