Longer holds / higher rep sets-- advice sought!

Hi all, not 100% sure where to put this so feel free to move it if appropriate... this is a half-formed idea so also feel free to suggest or criticise towards it..

I have been pondering the extended static holds / high rep sets that came up in another thread. Not 'just' Foundation mastery benchmarks (I can't believe I just said that), but ludicrous, no-really-I-can-sleep-like-this ease.

Currently I'm doing F work 6x a week and doing the same statics as a warmup each of those  days-- hollow, arch, 1/2 Lsit, chin hold, side arch, bottom-of-SLS, one-arm plank. This also includes some bridging, scap shrugs, rows, rocks (hollow for hbp/rc/fl/spl day, arch for sl/mn/sls day). On days where it is not a specific pre-element, I'm doing those for the time or reps for one mastery-length set as appropriate. Soon I'll add a 30 sec inverted hang to that list

On days where they ARE specific to work sets (ie. hollow/plank/chin are specific for HBP/RC/sPL/FL day), I have been adding 10 secs a week to the hold (and not moving any of them on until they all get there-- so still 70/40 sec now at wk 2). I haven't really had much of a goal in mind for this, which is part of what I'm asking here. What sort of times should I be shooting for? Trying to do the total of mastery sets in one go sounds nuts on paper, but also in one small part of the back of my mind sounds sort of like a worthwhile long term goal.

How does it sound to run basically a limited-run cycle of PE1's to milk them for everything they're worth? One set to failure of perfect form on specific day, one mastery-length set otherwise. Start from PE1 and go for my as-yet-undefined goal time. Six months from now, I could have some fairly impressive and PE1 totals if I don't mind some genuinely hard work, and I don't think they would too much impact my (generally) 5x5 working sets.

Self-delusion or ambitious but doable? I just don't have the context or experience to judge for myself, so choosing a goal would be a purely arbitrary figure. I also don't have the experience to judge what effect that would have on my working sets as the times and reps rise. Are there holds/exercises which are more 'worthwhile' to work on as a secondary focus than others, or is the idea of moving through the course with an even more difficult pass benchmark productive and viable?

Anyway, I'm just finishing the 2nd week of this cycle, so no changes will be made for another couple of weeks. Plenty of time to think it over and gather more information; all thoughts, advice or opinions appreciated.

(I'm not sure whether this is a good question or a stupid one, so I'm working on the basis that if I genuinely 'don't know,' then there are no stupid questions. More information is what I need, from those with the knowledge and experience I don't have...)

There's also the idea of approaching it in one set by doing the total target number of reps/seconds and trying to do it in as few sets as possible until I reach one. This also seems to have merit on paper.

It's hard to say whether your idea is good without knowing what you are hoping to achieve by training endurance in the basic elements. So, what is it you want to get out of all this effort?

Joshua Slocum said:

It's hard to say whether your idea is good without knowing what you are hoping to achieve by training endurance in the basic elements. So, what is it you want to get out of all this effort?

Pretty much ensuring that I've truly gotten everything I can out of each step along the way to lay the foundation for achieving advanced ring strength elements. I'm not a gymnast (this could potentially change, but I'm never going to be competitive) so I don't have the conditioning-whilst-skill-training aspect of things, but do want to take this to the highest level I can long-term. For me that means over-preparing, and hey, strength-endurance along the way? Nice side benefit.

This seems to me like a way of eking more out of the elements I've mastered (pending my formal evaluations of course, I'm working with my own eyes here), giving my Foundation work a secondary focus while not taking attention away from where it should be. Looks to be both a time and energy efficient way of doing so. I could well be wrong

The whole idea is still in infancy; any thoughts and experiences you might want to share on the subject are very welcome.

I dunno, I'm feeling a bit out of my depth. Will this help me lay groundwork, or am I planning suffering for minimal benefit that would only really benefit competitors looking to eke the very most out of every step? Is somewhere in between a happy medium or still inefficient use of time I could be working on more difficult elements? Hmmmmmmmmmm.

You're venturing into unknown territory as far as I'm concerned. Your first priority should of course making sure that your present foundation work does not suffer from any additions you make. 

Personally, It seems to me that once you've hit the point of mastering 5x60s, you'll start to see diminishing returns in terms of benefit vs time and effort spent. Could you benefit from working up to a 5-minute arch body hold? Probably. Is it worth it? Maybe not. Unless you're done with all the F2 progressions and looking for ways to do more while waiting for F3, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Joshua Slocum said:

You're venturing into unknown territory as far as I'm concerned. Your first priority should of course making sure that your present foundation work does not suffer from any additions you make. 

 

Personally, It seems to me that once you've hit the point of mastering 5x60s, you'll start to see diminishing returns in terms of benefit vs time and effort spent. Could you benefit from working up to a 5-minute arch body hold? Probably. Is it worth it? Maybe not. Unless you're done with all the F2 progressions and looking for ways to do more while waiting for F3, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Agreed re diminishing returns. I'll chew on it for a while. Is this not an approach you have used personally?

I am ready for F3 work in some progressions, but I certainly have plenty for the next few months. Upon which side note, I've extended my MnSE3 work by adding an initial Lsit to each set, under 30sec programming (4x18 yesterday ) and would love any ideas on extending Side Arch Rocks, which started awkward but have become straightforward after 2 months of 5x30. Really not sure how to logically step them up on my own ingenuity, they're sort of difficult to weight.

I do not have any personal experience with super-long static holds.

For MN I would just start building up to 5x30s full-L-sit.

For intensifying side arch rocks, I would do around-the-world rocks: arch-body-rock, quarter roll to side arch rock, quarter roll to hollow body rock, quarter roll to other side arch rock, quarter roll, repeat. You must maintain proper form the whole time *especially* while transitioning between positions.

Joshua Slocum said:

I do not have any personal experience with super-long static holds.

For MN I would just start building up to 5x30s full-L-sit.

For intensifying side arch rocks, I would do around-the-world rocks: arch-body-rock, quarter roll to side arch rock, quarter roll to hollow body rock, quarter roll to other side arch rock, quarter roll, repeat. You must maintain proper form the whole time *especially* while transitioning between positions.

1. Fair enough. I may just be spending too much time inside programming lately and these things circulate in my brain.

2. In progress 4x18 is comfortable, no hurry to leap straight to 5x30 due to no F3 yet, although of course there are Lsit lifts to be investigated next...

3. Wow. That is just awesome. I love it. That has completely given me a new project, superb idea. I love things that combine and extend previous elements. I'll go thrash these out for high reps and see what happens

Thanks for your time Joshua~ your experience is a valuable resource for me

Glad I could help

As a small update on how I have approached continuing work on the F2 progressions I have completed (RC, Mn, SL);

Mn- I'm in week 10 of 30 second Lsit programming, 4x30 today, after running the full 3 month cycle. Not quite sure where to go after that, whether Lsit lifts are too ambitious at this stage or I should maintain 1x30 and start working up straddle L. Advice sought on this one!

RC- Started over on the 5x5 full 3month cycle with wide grip pull, lat fly to BTN wide grip pull. So the nett effect is double the reps without lowering to straight arms, more difficult than I expected. That'll keep me occupied for another 10 weeks if necessary, and besides which these can simply be weighted if I run out of ideas.

SL- Started over on the full 3 month, 60 rep cycle for side arch rocks by putting them in a giant set-- today was 5x (12x(side arch, arch body, hollow body, other side arch)). Not sure what I'll do with this is if I do manage to finish the full cycle, hoping not to have to worry about that. Ran out of room, sadly, for the around the world rocks (and invented some new places to get bruises from them before I gave them up), so it's one immediately after the other.

On another noe, I'm also tossing up switching back to 3xF7 a week too, to give myself days focusing on flexibility/mobility. I would also like to consolidate my general and specific warmup before starting any of the work sets, if possible. My thought is to take advantage of the exercises which overlap a couple of the elements,

- 1x 60 rocks-- arch/hollow/side

- Pseudo planche pushups with an initial 30 sec planche lean

and stringing together related (warmup, thus not taxing) exercises to be more time efficient;

- Lsit to dips

- Inverted hang to pullups

This is sort of thinking aloud more than asking questions, but if anyone has input it would be greatly welcomed.

Heh, I know it looks like I'm living on the forum the past couple weeks, but the truth is I'm stuck here writing PHP/SSI and have a tab running, so I flick to it as a matter of habit I can give it up anytime I like, I swear...

Charm said:

Mn- I'm in week 10 of 30 second Lsit programming, 4x30 today, after running the full 3 month cycle. Not quite sure where to go after that, whether Lsit lifts are too ambitious at this stage or I should maintain 1x30 and start working up straddle L. Advice sought on this one!

I would go to straddle L, then advanced L-sit.

SL- Started over on the full 3 month, 60 rep cycle for side arch rocks by putting them in a giant set-- today was 5x (12x(side arch, arch body, hollow body, other side arch)). Not sure what I'll do with this is if I do manage to finish the full cycle, hoping not to have to worry about that. Ran out of room, sadly, for the around the world rocks (and invented some new places to get bruises from them before I gave them up), so it's one immediately after the other.

At some point you're going to want to start doing shoulder/support work on the stall bars to actually build up to the side lever.

Joshua Slocum said:

I would go to straddle L, then advanced L-sit.

 

At some point you're going to want to start doing shoulder/support work on the stall bars to actually build up to the side lever.

Sounds reasonable, although I'm not sure what shoulder/support work consists of other than working negative side pulls and tuck levers.

I've already been making a point of keeping my hips at least equal with my hands, but focused 5x30 straddle L work will probably take me longer to work through than it will to release F3.

Charm said:

Sounds reasonable, although I'm not sure what shoulder/support work consists of other than working negative side pulls and tuck levers.

I've already been making a point of keeping my hips at least equal with my hands, but focused 5x30 straddle L work will probably take me longer to work through than it will to release F3.

A simple thing would be just to do a straight-arm support, with your body vertical. E.g. the bottom of a side-lever pull, with your feet off the ground. Then you could do the top support (i.e. upside-down).

Joshua Slocum said:

At some point you're going to want to start doing shoulder/support work on the stall bars to actually build up to the side lever.

hari could u pls explain this support hold?

i imagine u hold bars with straight arms and lift your body of the ground, with chest towards bars?

Joshua Slocum said:

A simple thing would be just to do a straight-arm support, with your body vertical. E.g. the bottom of a side-lever pull, with your feet off the ground. Then you could do the top support (i.e. upside-down).

I see. That's a good idea to edge away at it without going off and doing my own thing too much. Thanks