Flat tuck Back Lever

I have been slowly increasing my hold times for the back lever over the last 4 months. I got my tuck to around 30ish seconds now and i would like to progress to the next level of flat tuck back lever.

heres the video of my latest attempt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnktYONdCLg or IMG_2802.MOV

Would you agree that i need more protraction? Higher hips? Is some amount of triceps brushing against your lats acceptable in this position? 

Thanks!

Yeah, maybe a bit higher hips.

hips higher. then remember that flat back does not mean arched back.

how much can you hold the tuck position?

also consider that BL is not foundation work. if you don't have already mastered the straddle planche, fl,hbp,manna,sl, rc and sls progressions, probably you are not ready to move over this stressful skills.

alex87 said:

hips higher. then remember that flat back does not mean arched back.

how much can you hold the tuck position?

also consider that BL is not foundation work. if you don't have already mastered the straddle planche, fl,hbp,manna,sl, rc and sls progressions, probably you are not ready to move over this stressful skills.

FL stands for Front Lever? I thought that one needs to master BL before attempting front one?

@alex87 are you saying that back lever is harder than manna and straddle planche? Are we talking about same back lever here (when you say planche, general population think about bent arm, arched back planche. Maybe my back lever is different than your ) Please, can you elaborate your post.

i'm saying that back lever is hard and stressful on the elbow and shoulders. if you don't prepare them joints for advanced straight arms movements the consequence can be long term injury. 

straddle planche in mean straight arms planche...of course

alex87 said:

hips higher. then remember that flat back does not mean arched back.

how much can you hold the tuck position?

also consider that BL is not foundation work. if you don't have already mastered the straddle planche, fl,hbp,manna,sl, rc and sls progressions, probably you are not ready to move over this stressful skills.

everybody is mentioning an arch in my back. thats a great observation!  I will try to hollow a little more.

No offense to you alex87 but my current goals are not in line with F1 at this time. My tuck back lever is at 35 seconds. Usually i stop because im bored of holding it any longer. My only goal is working towards a back lever on rings. I'm not sure why any of the harder skills you mention are relevant to the back lever. Can you clarify?

alex87 said:

i'm saying that back lever is hard and stressful on the elbow and shoulders. if you don't prepare them joints for advanced straight arms movements the consequence can be long term injury. 

straddle planche in mean straight arms planche...of course

Ohh i understand what you are saying now. I have a good german hang at 60 seconds. My arms never hurt. 

On 9 July 2013 at 11:31 AM, Alessandro Mainente said:

hips higher. then remember that flat back does not mean arched back.

how much can you hold the tuck position?

also consider that BL is not foundation work. if you don't have already mastered the straddle planche, fl,hbp,manna,sl, rc and sls progressions, probably you are not ready to move over this stressful skills.

Just going through some old posts and came across this. Why would I need manna to train back lever ? This is absurd. I could train safely and hold back lever for 20 seconds on rings before I started the foundation. Training planche puts much more stress on my elbows and shoulders than back lever. I do undarstand that many people needs to get ready for this exercise to avoid injury but it doesn't mean that they have to have to complete every single mastery from foundation. What kind of heresy are you spreading here guys ? Manna ? That's totally different level for a non gymnast. SLS ? Are you serious ?

no i'm serious, manna flexibility (at least) on shoulder extension is a proof of complete range of motion. shoulder extension is pretty damn bastard since if your chest and shoulder capsule are tight the possible results are :

-a forced range of motion over shoulder capsule that leads to long head proximal bicep tendon injury or tear

- more stress on elbow bicep tendon since the body works as a open chain compensating where a compensation is available. so possible injury to distal bicep tendon.

You know what is the risk and please do not be sooooo obvious, all we know that SLS has nothing to do with BL.  

please.

2 hours ago, Alessandro Mainente said:

no i'm serious, manna flexibility (at least) on shoulder extension is a proof of complete range of motion. shoulder extension is pretty damn bastard since if your chest and shoulder capsule are tight the possible results are :

-a forced range of motion over shoulder capsule that leads to long head proximal bicep tendon injury or tear

- more stress on elbow bicep tendon since the body works as a open chain compensating where a compensation is available. so possible injury to distal bicep tendon.

You know what is the risk and please do not be sooooo obvious, all we know that SLS has nothing to do with BL.  

please.

Well, I'm not going to change your opinion since your mind is set on it. For a competetive gymnast it might make sense to condition through certain skills before progressing to the others. But what if someone does not want to train for manna ? There are not other protocols for conditioning your shoulders, biceps etc to get ready for back lever work ?  I love fundation every bit, but what I really don't like is blind advices suggesting that you have to do this and that before you start doing that  and full stop. That is the impression that someone unexperienced with exercise will get reading a lot of posts here. You might have to believe that you have to have a straddle planche before you start doing back lever and you might believe in it as in God. I know that I can wake up at 1 am and do 5 sets of 10 second of proper back lever without getting injured yet I can't do advanced tuck planche  more than 3 seconds which I feel puts 10 times more stress on my elbows and shoulders. Perhaps we are all different. Having manna which is much harder skill than back lever, has no justification to be a must to progress to back lever. I bet you have seen many amazing performers out there having skills beyond our capabilities that don't have manna.

1 hour ago, Zach Armijo said:

I think you should reevaluate your quality of back lever if your adv tuck planche of 3 seconds places more stress on you than your back lever. If this is truly the case, then my first guess would fall to that you are squeezing into your lats too much, alleviating a lot of stress elsewhere on the body as well as essentially cheating/defeating the purpose of the back lever. 

 

You are taking Alex's words too directly. Of course you don't have to have a full manna before you start training a back lever, but you do need to have the worked shoulder extension. And the part on Alex giving blind advice....  I had a good chuckle at that statement right there. 

Ahh guys you just assume things. I'll post a vid after l recover from the wrist surgery. It's not Maltese but I'm pretty much hollow. What I am trying to say is that we are all different. Planche is taugh for me. Maybe it's not less stress but it puts completely different stress on my joints. Maybe I am different. My height doesn't help, I need quite a lean into it. It's just much harder for me to put my waight on the locked elbows.

IAbout Alex, I wasn't referring to Alex giving a blind advice. You've just said yourself that you don't need manna but you need to work shoulder extension to train back lever. What I was saying was that in many posts people asking for example about back lever are straight away told that they need to complete foundation to work on it.

You are not a special snowflake in terms of back lever training. Listen to the experienced people here who have trained adults to achieve back lever and planche for many years. They know the mechanics of both exercises and chances are that they are more advanced than you, and they could fairly easily assess what you do wrong in both exercises. Truth is that an incomplete range of motion for your shoulder extension causes impingement of the biceps under load during that position. That is anatomy, that cannot be argued with. You are the one making guesses and assumptions without having a clue of the mechanics, you are the one being personally invested. When statistics, the pros and the anatomy dictates a risk of injury for adults to begin training back lever, you should listen. That is the smart thing to do.

What is up with your wrist by the way?

To give you some more context. Way back when, when Building the Gymnastics Bodies came out, Coach Sommer considered Back Lever a fundamental static position which could be trained right away (it requires less strength than Front Lever or Planche). For the typical gymnasts who start out young this is still true. 

However, Coach Sommer has since then changed his mind after training with adult trainees and now considers that back lever as intermediate ring strength. The reason is that adult trainees are heavier, typically have tight and weak biceps and compromised shoulder mobility (which will add to stress on your elbows). 

A lot of people can get away with training back lever and will be fine. Others will just get some tendinitis while some unlucky few will destroy their elbows for good (and that never happens when you expect it), so the default recommendation here is that you should be very well on your way to finishing Foundation. Whatever else you may believe, it would be irresponsible for people on this forum to tell you otherwise, don't you think ?

I think most people are under the spell here or don't even bother to read what someone is saying. When did I say you can train an adult without preparing his shoulders for back lever. My post wasn't even related to myself since I can do a back lever. All I'm saying is that you don't have to have manna to start working on back lever. There are other exercises that can prepare you for that. 

3 hours ago, Alexander Egebak said:

You are not a special snowflake in terms of back lever training. Listen to the experienced people here who have trained adults to achieve back lever and planche for many years. They know the mechanics of both exercises and chances are that they are more advanced than you, and they could fairly easily assess what you do wrong in both exercises. Truth is that an incomplete range of motion for your shoulder extension causes impingement of the biceps under load during that position. That is anatomy, that cannot be argued with. You are the one making guesses and assumptions without having a clue of the mechanics, you are the one being personally invested. When statistics, the pros and the anatomy dictates a risk of injury for adults to begin training back lever, you should listen. That is the smart thing to do.

What is up with your wrist by the way?

Yes Sherlock, 10 years experience in physiotherapy makes me completely guessing what I am saying. To start with if you want to reply make sure you understand what I wrote, before you will assume I have no clue. I think most people are under the spell here or don't even bother to read what someone is saying. When did I say you can train an adult without preparing his shoulders for back lever. My post wasn't even related to myself since I can do a back lever. All I'm saying is that you don't have to have manna to start working on back lever.  foundation is a great tool to progress but since it came up most advices are limited to "you have to complete foundation to do that and that" . There are other exercises that can prepare you for that. Many of them are included in manna progression but holding manna is not a must to start training back lever. 

Regarding my wrist I was hit by a car landed hyperextending my wrist and snapped scapholunate ligament. I've had reconstruction surgery. 

Hi Igor, as an impartial observer I would like to point a few things out to you that you may not recognize in yourself.  This is purely for your own growth, so do not be angry.  You seem very bitter about something.  I see you have posted many times on these forums about how much you dislike parts of the foundation program.  You have not had any positive remarks, all your comments have a cynical ring to them.  You have been injured advancing too quickly through elements of the foundation program (i.e. trap strain on L-sit pull-ups), but you criticize the rest periods and the importance of truly mastering progressions prior to moving on to more advanced movements.  I would recommend that you reassess your goals and your philosophical approach to life.  Do not look at these forums as a place to be negative, but as a place to learn from others' experiences and contribute your own experiences.  We are a friendly group, and there is no reason to be confrontational or irritable.  It just makes you sound like an immature youth, not ready for any serious training.  To nitpick little details of somebody's comments takes away from the "esprit de corps" of our community and leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  As my mother used to say, "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".  

43 minutes ago, Douglas Wadle said:

Hi Igor, as an impartial observer I would like to point a few things out to you that you may not recognize in yourself.  This is purely for your own growth, so do not be angry.  You seem very bitter about something.  I see you have posted many times on these forums about how much you dislike parts of the foundation program.  You have not had any positive remarks, all your comments have a cynical ring to them.  You have been injured advancing too quickly through elements of the foundation program (i.e. trap strain on L-sit pull-ups), but you criticize the rest periods and the importance of truly mastering progressions prior to moving on to more advanced movements.  I would recommend that you reassess your goals and your philosophical approach to life.  Do not look at these forums as a place to be negative, but as a place to learn from others' experiences and contribute your own experiences.  We are a friendly group, and there is no reason to be confrontational or irritable.  It just makes you sound like an immature youth, not ready for any serious training.  To nitpick little details of somebody's comments takes away from the "esprit de corps" of our community and leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  As my mother used to say, "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".  

You are absolutely wrong. I cherish foundation with all my heart and am not angry with anyone. How did you figure out I advanced too quickly not seeing my previous masteries ? From what you are saying people won't  have chances to get injured any more once completed the foundation the right way. I think there could be many other reasons for my injury, and it probably was since l recovered from that episode and never had a problem since then. Asking questions or wondering about specific applications does not mean l criticise it. Where did you figure out, snooping through my posts that l dislike parts of foundation ? When I said that resting periods will largely differ from person to person ? If I could think of a good reason to get angry it would be probably your clairvoyant response - Reading between the lines and drawing unjustified conclusions not knowing someone.  On the other hand English is not my first language so maybe l choose the wrong words.

Have a nice day

No one is under a spell. We are all under the guidance of an expert team of coaches where some of them happen to be physical therapists themselves while some happen to have trained adults for many, many years.

First of all, I think Alessandro responded to your initial concerns about manna being required for back lever training - he elaborated and said that manna like shoulder flexibility was required. As an example the PE 2 iM of the handstand course with a 90 degrees angle. Now there is no need to discuss that part any more, you have had your answer.

Secondly, you do come off as quite harsh, I must agree with Douglas Wadle. That does not offend me personally, but whether that is due to your actual attentions or due to a language barrier, you do "break the spirit" of this forum, and you might offend quite a few people. That is not beneficial at all since you are asking your questions out of pure interest.

Another thing is, you resurrect an old thread from 2013 without any reason. Sometimes, in order to have people do the right thing they need to be told black and white statements instead of inconcise meandering, which they will interpret as whatever their ego wants it to sound like. You must acknowledge that as a physiotherapist. Furthermore, things change during the course of years.

I am sorry about your wrists.

Ok, now that that's out of the way, let's get back to the topic at hand.

GB has, for good reason, taken a very conservative approach to BL. There have been some pretty serious injuries in pursuit of what is essentially a party trick when started too soon. BL takes less physical strength than many of the other elements, but that's because it's possible to perform by simply 'resting' on the biceps. We need to make sure it's ready for the tension, and ideally open enough that you can't just lay there.

BL is addressed in the Rings course which ideally would be started after completion of F4, but can be started while one is working on F3. A full manna isn't a requirement, but as mentioned diligent work towards it, particularly with regards to shoulder extension, is. We also want to make sure that a trainee has some actual experience with training and is 'hopfully' starting to develop a little personal wisdom so they don't push too hard without understanding how to read their body, and know the potential hazards of BL work.

The point is we want to be certain a person is prepared for the work before giving them the thumbs up.

Now since we have a conservative approach, we're going to be very critical of someone we haven't seen regularly in the community wanting to get into this. I'm pretty sure you know that.

Lets keep the discussion civil, level headed and unemotional.

Apologies if I came across harsh and offended anyone. No hostility intended. Peace

Could someone make a list of the shoulder extension (and any other, if there are) exercises in F1-4 that should be mastered before commencing rings/BL training?

I had a 20s straddle BL before starting Foundation and was looking to start training full BL but here I was soon convinced it's not worth the risk. However, I'd like to get back into it when I can do it safely.

I'd say if you want to get into the exercises, maybe buy the Foundation courses? And/or the Handstand work, as well. They'll get you sorted. You could be rest assured then that you won't injure yourself if you follow those progressions.

16 hours ago, Petri Widsten said:

Could someone make a list of the shoulder extension (and any other, if there are) exercises in F1-4 that should be mastered before commencing rings/BL training?

I had a 20s straddle BL before starting Foundation and was looking to start training full BL but here I was soon convinced it's not worth the risk. However, I'd like to get back into it when I can do it safely.

Ha Ha... Don't get offended please I don't mean anything  derogative  but You cracked me up Petri.  I need ring series. Can anyone post progressions with pics

5 hours ago, Zach Armijo said:

This is pretty much asking for someone to post paid material on a public forum. 

There is more than enough material in the free forums to find what you are looking for if you spend the time to dig. FB will also give you what you are looking for. 

I meant listing them without disclosing the actual names, so e.g. MN/PEx or RC iMx. Daniel, if you were referring to me in particular I have F1, F2, H1 and the Stretch series.