Exact shoulder position ([hinge] rows)

Hey guys,

i'm wondering about the exact shoulder position/movement while performing hinge rows or rows in general. At the top of the movement (when the arms are fully bended) you should fully retract the shoulders. That's what i know for shure. I also guess we should keep the shoulders naturally retracted at that point, not concentrating on depressing (right?).

Despite what i want to know is the shoulder position throughout the movement and especially

at the bottom of a row. Should we concentrate on retracting the shoulders all the time (thats what i guess)?

Especially at the bottom of the movement (when both arms are straight)  should the shoulders be retracted or should we just let us hang?

so long

p5yx

Sometimes I don't understand the fixation with the 'exactly right' shoulder position. This isn't a go at you, I just feel that people are focusing on minutiae sometimes.

It seems to me the focus should be on performing the movement as shown, in this case, getting that pull smooth, controlled and using more than just your arms, focusing on the movement of the back and arms rather than trying to objectively position scapulae in some ideal position.

Don't overthink it, get to rowing! You'll learn more by achieving the most complete, controlled ROM you can and putting in reps there than trying to artificially force it.

/rant

Really want to re-emphasise that I'm not saying it's a dumb question or having a stab at OP. Row row row and if you aren't achieving full ROM or any part of it feels out of control, then you obviously need to dig deeper in those details. Maybe that's what you've done and now is the appropriate time to get more detail.

Someone want to post on scap motion now that I've had my say?

I believe that in pulling exercises you should always "deadhang" between reps...

when you watch RC/PE1 demonstration, it is clear that the athlete lets his shoulders to protract, thus deadhang. 

during rest of the movement - depression and retraction of course

thx  @all.

@charm: yes i know i tend to overthink things. the thing is coach mentioned alot of times that you want to have perfect form on the movements in gst. i try to focus on the most important things though. but i think this i really a legit question.

there is so mutch talk about proper protraction in all kind of planche or backlever movements. so i think horizontal pulling movements like rows should get the same attention when talking about shoulder position.

@spyro7800: that's what i've seen in the video too. I'm just asking because i've alwasy read on this forum that you should retract your shoulders all the time.

OP-- Absolutely a legit question, no question is a bad one! I just see similar questions on here quite often, and I feel that it can get in the way of working on the movement *as a whole* rather than a collection of parts at times. Definitely not accusing you of that being the case now.

Ok i rewatched all of the rowing videos. In the later variants which are performed by dillon you can fairly clear see that shoulders should be retracted the whole time. In the hinge row video it isn't totally clear.

I was about to post the same question. It is unclear to me if I should keep the shoulders engaded and "back" like the pinching shoulder blades motion in the scapular shrug, or more through the whole ROM, treating the intial pull as a inverted scapular shrug (shoulders fully extended, pulling in to semi-pinch the shoulder blades, then pulling the rest of the body through the motion-to fully pinch). Remembering back to my weight training days (with a trainer) I remember having to do both types of motion for rows.

Cyan said:

the intial pull as a inverted scapular shrug (shoulders fully extended, pulling in to semi-pinch the shoulder blades, then pulling the rest of the body through the motion-to fully pinch). 

you got it B)

are you shure? take a closer look at dillons performance at the rowing movements. he never has protracted shoulder blades. he always keeps his scaps retracted even at the the bottom at the movement. i've tried both variants and the one dillon showed seems to be alot more natural to me.

P5yx said:

are you shure? take a closer look at dillons performance at the rowing movements. he never has protracted shoulder blades. he always keeps his scaps retracted even at the the bottom at the movement. i've tried both variants and the one dillon showed seems to be alot more natural to me.

Have you tried front lever pulls? Even in a flat tuck. You might give a try to see what came up in another thread--- looking at this as an assisted front pull helped me put it together in my head instead of just going through the motions.

Charm said:

Have you tried front lever pulls? Even in a flat tuck. You might give a try to see what came up in another thread--- looking at this as an assisted front pull helped me put it together in my head instead of just going through the motions.

So you say i'm wrong? I did fronnt lever pulls and front lever rows before i started working on F1. And i always kept focusing on retracting my shoulders.

I try to compare elements as mutch as i can. i e.g. compare all kinds of rowing motions with a full frontlever.

In my eyes the bottom of a row is exactly the same postition than a full front lever (except the feet touching the ground of course). It should be obvious that you should retract your shoulders as hard as you can while performing a FL.

So i guess it's the same with rows. What do you guys think?

P5yx said:

So you say i'm wrong? I did fronnt lever pulls and front lever rows before i started working on F1. And i always kept focusing on retracting my shoulders.

I try to compare elements as mutch as i can. i e.g. compare all kinds of rowing motions with a full frontlever.

In my eyes the bottom of a row is exactly the same postition than a full front lever (except the feet touching the ground of course). It should be obvious that you should retract your shoulders as hard as you can while performing a FL.

So i guess it's the same with rows. What do you guys think?

look at Cyan's post on this that he posted at 2:25am. you'll have your answer there^^^^^^^

I see, thx ^^

To me, the major points during the hinge rows are:

1. Be pushing the elbows directly down to the floor the whole time, no matter where the rest of your body is in space.
2. Don't let the elbows go behind the back of the ribs
3. Make sure hands are at shoulder level at the top. I find that the back of my hands are in line with the front of my shoulders at the top.
4. Keep weight off of glutes at all times.

I find that actively working on these cues, and not worrying about too much else, is going to make the exercise work correctly. Without getting into too many details, I find that this requires your body to :

• avoid anterior tilt
• engage the traps
• engage the lats
• place most of the weight on the upper body pulling musculature

It fixes a whole lot of things without overthinking, and makes the exercise a whole lot harder at first.

Joshua Naterman said:

(...)

1. Make sure hands are at shoulder level at the top. I find that the back of my hands are in line with the front of my shoulders at the top.
2. Keep weight off of glutes at all times.

(...)

Are we watching the same video???

Well, #2 (#4 in the original post) is mentioned in the notes under the video. But I am curious about the hands-to-shoulders bit.

If you ever figure out how to flex your elbow to the point where your lower arm can move behind your upper arm, be sure to send us the hospital's address so we can send you a group card.

Joshua Naterman said:

If you ever figure out how to flex your elbow to the point where your lower arm can move behind your upper arm, be sure to send us the hospital's address so we can send you a group card.

Ha. Maybe I misunderstood something here. I meant that in the video and pics Coach provided the athlete brings his hands to ear level at the top of each rep, not shoulder level.

If your scaps are depressed, there is a very low chance of you having your hands at ear level because most people do not have very short upper arms and very long lower arms... Everyone is build differently, but I can't have my hands at ear level without something being very, very wrong during this movement. If someone has short upper arms and long lower arms, they're going to have their hands by their ears, but I am not one of those people. Mine are fairly even.

In my opinion, and based on what we saw at the seminars, and based on my personal results (the least important thing to everyone else, but the most important to me) this aspect of the form in the video is sub-par. Those hands are practically at the top of the head, and I don't see the lats doing much of anything, while the obliques are clearly doing a good bit of work at the top.

What I am describing is much more difficult, but I do believe that it should be considered the mastery form. It matches what has been described by everyone in all of the hinge row threads. Additionally, this form turns the exercise into a scalable, effective lat strength movement that carries over well to all future pulls. 

Everyone can discuss this to death if they want, I've said what I believe on the matter. I'm going to go get some sleep, wake up, study, work out, go to work, and repeat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jC3fPXngvc&feature=youtu.be  (skip first 20seconds)

... this is what I do...I was first pulling my hand to far away and they ended up behind my back..after correcting it this is my current form and it felt really good, I thought for the first time that I perform it correctly..

but after Joshua's post I am really confused whether I should put the rings lower and pull to my shoulders...any other pointers about my form? thanks guys

spyro7800 said:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jC3fPXngvc&feature=youtu.be  (skip first 20seconds)

 

... this is what I do...I was first pulling my hand to far away and they ended up behind my back..after correcting it this is my current form and it felt really good, I thought for the first time that I perform it correctly..

but after Joshua's post I am really confused whether I should put the rings lower and pull to my shoulders...any other pointers about my form? thanks guys

 

I actually don`t want to jugde due to the angle of the camera. But in my eyes you could hinge just a little bit more so you really reach a 90 degree angle between torso and legs ? Beside that i think your height is ok isn`t it ?

Your shoulders are quite a bit off of the ground. Mine are barely off, and I am pretty sure that will make a big difference in where your hands end up.

Zach Armijo said:

It blows my mind how over thought this PE is. Amusing to say the least. You are all forgetting this is just a step to make a regular body row easier by crippling the load. I the video, Jeff starts by glutes on the ground, hands ear level. Then lowers to shoulders a few inches off the ground, less than 4 to be sure, and glutes barely brushing if at all on the ground. When he pulls up, you can clearly see his glutes are in contact with the ground the original sitting position. This is one of those exercises that you look at the video, read the 2 notes, and just do it. My general opinion of this PE anyways....

I think the problem comes in under the interpretation of the ass off the ground statement. Whenever I try to do this movement I usually just end up doing a regular body row, because keeping my butt off the ground (through the whole movement) just makes me do that. If, Instead, I try to keep by glutes to the pavement, I have no issues. I was tempted to just ignore this exercise and start with the next step, as I find this movement annoying.

You are overanalysing the exercise.