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Started by jwalker497, April 25, 2013 · 166 Replies · 46,262 Views
just from the dips, i can see that you're rolling your shoulders forward, which means lack of mobility and also you're elbows aren't pointed directly behind you or pointing to the ceiling when at the bottom of your Dip, which isn't so low. that's a good place to start from and also the FG pullups seems like you're elbows/forearms/wrists aren't mobile enough or strong enough to start from a dead hang.
just some refinement to minimize injury, improve form to maximize the effort invested 
Here are some MU Attempts, Neg MU, and Rope climb. I forgot to record Russian Dips but will do next go around.
I think I had been trying to do these a little too slow. After watching some videos of other people doing them I tried to arch my back and pull harder to give me a little momentum to get my body fwd through the rings. I wasn't kipping but the harder pull def help getting fwd. I feel like I'm close. Any advice or criticism?
only to put light on some point.
-People who arch during muscle up are doing it wrong. only with chest in and hollow position you can pass the bar on the muscle up that is the final version. Don't use momentum, is strength skill not kipping/swinging/kicking skill. if you can't do without them, probably you're weak for that versions.
-you're of course at the beginning in RC. my personal motivation is that when you are switching the hand you are loosing some cm on the arm that is grabbing the rope (the lower). the reason is lack of strength on lats/bicep. usually i perform the switch of the hand only when the upper arm is completely on the sternum and the forearm is closed over the shoulder. try to do the RC on that variation if you can.
from my POV you should not focus on muscle up or in general CPP variation. RC is a pre-req, but actually is not yet one of your skills.
Hey JWalker497. I just read your “MU with cross trainers thread†and noticed that (some) people are getting somewhat aggravated by your (many??) how-do-I-go-about-getting-my-MU postings. That happens; even on this forum. My advise: just keep trying man. You are almost there (as you said yourself). In fact your transition is pretty much there but you fail to move over that last small hump into your dip. My suggestion is that you also focus more on getting really low in your ring dips. In the dips you show in your clip you start to transition into a hang way too early (i.e. hands about a foot above shoulders instead of two or three inches). Go slowly down in your ring dips until your hands are as close under your shoulders as possible with under arms horizontal. In fact, the same position of your hands and underarms (shown in your clip) when you get up into the transition from a FG pull up. Practice pushing out from that position to, say, a quarter dip and back. If you find that cross trainers help you to get a better feel of your transition, by all means use them (I have no experience with them). Have fun training. Don’t forget to show us when you get your first MU.
^^^^
You should listen to this guy. He knows muscle ups. Some people around here call the feet supported method the "FritsMB Method"
He definitivly brings new meaning to the phrase: stay on the ball
FritsMB said:
Hey JWalker497. I just read your “MU with cross trainers thread†and noticed that (some) people are getting somewhat aggravated by your (many??) how-do-I-go-about-getting-my-MU postings. That happens; even on this forum. My advise: just keep trying man. ...................................... Don’t forget to show us when you get your first MU.
Yeah, I like your enthusiasm and I'm looking forward to seeing your first MU 
That brick wall is gonna come down!
Thanks man I appreciate it. I dont mean to annoy everyone but I cant stop. I have to get this thing. Here is my latest effort from yesterday.
FritsMB said:
Hey JWalker497. I just read your “MU with cross trainers thread†and noticed that (some) people are getting somewhat aggravated by your (many??) how-do-I-go-about-getting-my-MU postings. That happens; even on this forum. My advise: just keep trying man. You are almost there (as you said yourself). In fact your transition is pretty much there but you fail to move over that last small hump into your dip. My suggestion is that you also focus more on getting really low in your ring dips. In the dips you show in your clip you start to transition into a hang way too early (i.e. hands about a foot above shoulders instead of two or three inches). Go slowly down in your ring dips until your hands are as close under your shoulders as possible with under arms horizontal. In fact, the same position of your hands and underarms (shown in your clip) when you get up into the transition from a FG pull up. Practice pushing out from that position to, say, a quarter dip and back. If you find that cross trainers help you to get a better feel of your transition, by all means use them (I have no experience with them). Have fun training. Don’t forget to show us when you get your first MU.
Thanks Frits, yo are are an inspiration my friend.
jwalker497 said:Thanks man I appreciate it. I dont mean to annoy everyone but I cant stop. I have to get this thing. Here is my latest effort from yesterday.
Yay! 
jwalker497 said:Thanks man I appreciate it. I dont mean to annoy everyone but I cant stop. I have to get this thing. Here is my latest effort from yesterday.
Here is what I see, based on your elbow version of the Russian dips and your false grip pull ups:
Russian Dips:
You're actually doing this with the right idea, but you are at the very beginning of your strength and technique development here. Take a good look, and see the point where you collapse down. It may not feel like you're collapsing, but it is very clear upon watching that you are collapsing once your elbows get just a little bit behind your wrists. There's a brief hold, and then a semi-controlled thump down to the bar. My suggestion for working on this is to hold for 3-10 seconds (build up slowly) where you have that brief hold, and then press back to the start position. i would not do more than 3-5 reps per set, and I would start with one rep per set. This is quite hard on the elbows, as are slow muscle ups. It will probably take you a few months, but you will get to the point where you can slowly go down and rest the elbows very lightly on the bar. That will represent a significant strength (and technique) improvement. One of the keys is to keep your weight over your hands as your elbows go down to the bar. You have slightly better strength and technique on the "full version" negative,which suggests that your internal rotation strength is better than your elbow strength. The same criticism applies though, you are collapsing instead of completing the ROM. You are not strong enough to do so yet, so don't sweat it: Instead of collapsing in the negative, only go as far down as you can return to the start position from. A brief hold at that bottom point, as described above, will help your development. You've got the right idea, but faulty application of said idea.
False grip pull ups:
You're just not strong enough yet. Part of this is that you're letting your elbows flare out, which indicates you are not using your lats to their full potential. You probably have more strength here than you have actually figured out how to use, and fixing this will probably make a noticeable difference. When these are truly mastered, your hands will be at the lower portion of the chest AND the forearms will be parallel with the ground. Until then, keep those elbows in tight and keep doing the holds you're doing. This, in my opinion, is the hardest part of the MU.
What FritsMB said about the hollow body is true, and the longer you keep the body hollow through the pull up portion the better off you'll be at the top. If you have to switch body shapes during this, you run a greater risk of losing the activation you need, and it also looks uglier. And, of course, you aren't being prepared at all for an L-sit muscle up, which by nature requires you to stay hollow from bottom to top.
Muscle up:
Based on my other comments, you might see this one coming... but I'm going to say it anyways. Your transition is weak, and it is weak because these previous areas are too weak. However, you now have a good game plan to fix those weaknesses. Yes, it will take a few months. I started out with FG pull ups and Russian dips in the same place as you, weaker in the case of the full Russian, and it took me about 2 months after I analyzed the MU and developed this strategy to get two slow muscle ups at 226 lbs. I have seen other people who were not as physically strong as me in pull ups or dips take up to 4 months to get a nice slow MU with this approach.
Therefore, it is my solitary opinion that you should not be focusing on actual muscle ups right now... they are too far out of reach. When you have mastered the dips and the pull ups, you will find that you AUTOMATICALLY have an extremely solid MU. Your deficiencies are just so clear that it makes no sense to me to do anything except focus on them directly.
Thank you for posting the videos, that is by FAR the best thing to do when seeking help! I hope you can see how much better our suggestions are now that we've been able to observe your movement. Great angles, by the way. I hope other people pay attention to that... a video is only as good as the angle chosen.
I think I'll make a muscle up tutorial video before the end of summer
Jono said:I think I'll make a muscle up tutorial video before the end of summer
Why? It's a trivial skill. You literally build strength in dip and strength in pullup with correct body positions. Then when you are strong enough to do one you build volume using the progressions listed in BtGB until you build enough that you can do the full thing for reps. There thats your tutorial.
I realize that it may be more difficult for some and I'm not trivializing the effort, just the steps involved. This isn't pommel circles, or handstand, or something that needs to be analyzed to death, just hold hollow body so you dont lean back, pull, lean forward, and push. Thats it.
Daniel Burnham said:Why? It's a trivial skill. You literally build strength in dip and strength in pullup with correct body positions. Then when you are strong enough to do one you build volume using the progressions listed in BtGB until you build enough that you can do the full thing for reps. There thats your tutorial.
I realize that it may be more difficult for some and I'm not trivializing the effort, just the steps involved. This isn't pommel circles, or handstand, or something that needs to be analyzed to death, just hold hollow body so you dont lean back, pull, lean forward, and push. Thats it.
You're right lol
I just thought I'd make one for people who's only goal/care is learning a muscle-up (which is usually the case)
jwalker497 said:Here are some MU Attempts, Neg MU, and Rope climb. I forgot to record Russian Dips but will do next go around.
I think I had been trying to do these a little too slow. After watching some videos of other people doing them I tried to arch my back and pull harder to give me a little momentum to get my body fwd through the rings. I wasn't kipping but the harder pull def help getting fwd. I feel like I'm close. Any advice or criticism?
Okay, I just watched your videos and I think I may have your solution. On some of them, you looked extremely close to getting to support.
I actually ran into the same problem after I got my muscle-ups. The problem is..........................
Your false grip.
You're grabbing the ring on the side, then putting your wrist over. I find that this makes it harder to turn your body over to get into support. Hold your false grip in the middle of the ring, just like you would in a normal grip.
After I got my muscle-ups, I started doing this bad habit because I thought it was more comfortable, and I couldn't do muscle-ups anymore. I thought I got weaker, but it turns out the bad false grip was screwing me up.
I can clearly see that in your first muscle-up attempt, if your hand was in the middle of the ring, you would have made it.
I'm pretty sure that this is what is stopping you. I better see another attempt today with the proper grip! By the way, if it's too hard/awkward to hold, use chalk.
Cody said:Okay, I just watched your videos and I think I may have your solution. On some of them, you looked extremely close to getting to support.
I actually ran into the same problem after I got my muscle-ups. The problem is..........................
Your false grip.
You're grabbing the ring on the side, then putting your wrist over. I find that this makes it harder to turn your body over to get into support. Hold your false grip in the middle of the ring, just like you would in a normal grip.
After I got my muscle-ups, I started doing this bad habit because I thought it was more comfortable, and I couldn't do muscle-ups anymore. I thought I got weaker, but it turns out the bad false grip was screwing me up.
I can clearly see that in your first muscle-up attempt, if your hand was in the middle of the ring, you would have made it.
I'm pretty sure that this is what is stopping you. I better see another attempt today with the proper grip! By the way, if it's too hard/awkward to hold, use chalk.
Interesting. Do you or anyone else have any good videos on the proper false grip. I do struggle holding it. Did you see the videos from yesterday, there are my newest
Joshua Naterman said:Here is what I see, based on your elbow version of the Russian dips and your false grip pull ups:
Russian Dips:
You're actually doing this with the right idea, but you are at the very beginning of your strength and technique development here. Take a good look, and see the point where you collapse down. It may not feel like you're collapsing, but it is very clear upon watching that you are collapsing once your elbows get just a little bit behind your wrists. There's a brief hold, and then a semi-controlled thump down to the bar. My suggestion for working on this is to hold for 3-10 seconds (build up slowly) where you have that brief hold, and then press back to the start position. i would not do more than 3-5 reps per set, and I would start with one rep per set. This is quite hard on the elbows, as are slow muscle ups. It will probably take you a few months, but you will get to the point where you can slowly go down and rest the elbows very lightly on the bar. That will represent a significant strength (and technique) improvement. One of the keys is to keep your weight over your hands as your elbows go down to the bar. You have slightly better strength and technique on the "full version" negative,which suggests that your internal rotation strength is better than your elbow strength. The same criticism applies though, you are collapsing instead of completing the ROM. You are not strong enough to do so yet, so don't sweat it: Instead of collapsing in the negative, only go as far down as you can return to the start position from. A brief hold at that bottom point, as described above, will help your development. You've got the right idea, but faulty application of said idea.
False grip pull ups:
You're just not strong enough yet. Part of this is that you're letting your elbows flare out, which indicates you are not using your lats to their full potential. You probably have more strength here than you have actually figured out how to use, and fixing this will probably make a noticeable difference. When these are truly mastered, your hands will be at the lower portion of the chest AND the forearms will be parallel with the ground. Until then, keep those elbows in tight and keep doing the holds you're doing. This, in my opinion, is the hardest part of the MU.
What FritsMB said about the hollow body is true, and the longer you keep the body hollow through the pull up portion the better off you'll be at the top. If you have to switch body shapes during this, you run a greater risk of losing the activation you need, and it also looks uglier. And, of course, you aren't being prepared at all for an L-sit muscle up, which by nature requires you to stay hollow from bottom to top.
Muscle up:
Based on my other comments, you might see this one coming... but I'm going to say it anyways. Your transition is weak, and it is weak because these previous areas are too weak. However, you now have a good game plan to fix those weaknesses. Yes, it will take a few months. I started out with FG pull ups and Russian dips in the same place as you, weaker in the case of the full Russian, and it took me about 2 months after I analyzed the MU and developed this strategy to get two slow muscle ups at 226 lbs. I have seen other people who were not as physically strong as me in pull ups or dips take up to 4 months to get a nice slow MU with this approach.
Therefore, it is my solitary opinion that you should not be focusing on actual muscle ups right now... they are too far out of reach. When you have mastered the dips and the pull ups, you will find that you AUTOMATICALLY have an extremely solid MU. Your deficiencies are just so clear that it makes no sense to me to do anything except focus on them directly.
Thank you for posting the videos, that is by FAR the best thing to do when seeking help! I hope you can see how much better our suggestions are now that we've been able to observe your movement. Great angles, by the way. I hope other people pay attention to that... a video is only as good as the angle chosen.
This is good info thanks, Do you think I should work russian dips to my elbows or to armpits?
jwalker497 said:Interesting. Do you or anyone else have any good videos on the proper false grip. I do struggle holding it. Did you see the videos from yesterday, there are my newest
I still see the same problem. You're grabbing the side of the ring.
http://chadwaterbury.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/grips.jpg
put chalk on your wrists to hold it better.
I dont think I understand. If the ring is a clock. I try to grab 7-8-9 oclock. Is that incorrect?
jwalker497 said:I dont think I understand. If the ring is a clock. I try to grab 7-8-9 oclock. Is that incorrect?
Are you folding your wrists over the rings? As in bending at the wrist.
Grab at 6 then fold your wrist over.
I always grab the lower side of the rings to get the wrists on the bottom center of the rings whenever I do a false grip. I found that to be the most comfortable for me and don't feel that it impedes the transition. I've also seen tutorials of false grip from others saying the same thing too. This could be a case of personal preference though.
I grab at around 7:30 (on the right hand; 4:30 on the left), so my wrists sit at 6.
Those are all fine, however, you DON'T want to grab at 10 like he's doing. It basically makes it way harder to get your shoulders over your hands to get into a support.
Michael Traynor did a really good video on gripping the rings a while back and will likely help you with your false grip. There's a good chance your wrists are lacking mobility to get into an ideal position so start stretching out your forearms more
