Xtreme Gymnastics 2009 Video versus Foundation Progression Rates

Hi Coach Sommer and the GB Staff:

I recently watched the excellent video clip on the Community Forum which gave some insight into a day of training at Xtreme Gymnastics:

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/11555-back-in-2009-in-xtreme-gym/

One thing that really stood out to me was that Dillon seemed to be working some pretty advanced moves: ring planche, ring maltese, etc. Given that the date of the clip is given as October 2009, that means he would only have been training for 2-3 years at the time.

I understand the programming you use for your in-house athletes probably differs somewhat from that in the Foundation series given that they train a broader spectrum of modalities under your direct guidance and Foundation is a new system you have developed for adults, but I was wondering how Dillon was able to start training these advanced elements so quickly after beginning GST? He was only 15 when he started so his body probably wasn't as messed up as the bodies of some of the adults on this board, but it still strikes me as extremely rapid progress! Was it just the case that we was strong and supple enough from the start to demonstrate mastery in many of your prerequisite GST elements?

Many thanks in advance,

Neil

I'll let others speak to this further, but from what I have been told dillon was/is a very gifted athlete which allowed him to progress strengthwise very quickly through the program.

What I heard

was that before gettting into gymnastics, he had been into a whole bunch of other sports.

What I saw (during a week)

(in Arizona) was that he worked his butt off. He is like a machine!

I know nothing about Dillon's case in particular, but it is not uncommon for young and gifted athletes with an athletic background to be able to safely progress to some of the more difficult straight-arm strength moves in just a couple of years. 

I do not want you guys to get the wrong idea and think that he only achieved great strength because he somehow genetically superior.  I have been told the same as Matts previously stated, that he has very strong work ethic.  Also he was trained in person by coach sommer.  We have been given the foundation program but rarely do any of us perform our workouts with as much intensity that is surely required from a world class coach.

Daniel Burnham said:

I do not want you guys to get the wrong idea and think that he only achieved great strength because he somehow genetically superior.  I have been told as Matt that he has very strong work ethic.  Also he was trained in person by coach sommer.  We have been given the foundation program but rarely do any of us perform our workouts with as much intensity that is surely required from a world class coach.

Indeed. Work ethic is the greatest skill you can cultivate. Even those who are able to progress quickly still have to work incredibly hard to do so. 

Yes, gifted and hardworking athletes make the fastest progress. I know a Russian street workout athlete on youtube who has a solid maltese and much more with only 2 years of training.

Short and lightweight people also make faster progress due to mechanical advantage.

Dillon was a wreck.  

He literally spent the first year moaning and groaning about everything in his body; and that was on the most basic of basic work.  His mobility was especially poor.  For example:

- he was unable to perform a bridge for the first 18 months or so without extreme discomfort.  

- he was not even close to opening his shoulders while in a handstand

Coach Sommer said:

Dillon was a wreck.  

 

He literally spent the first year moaning and groaning about everything in his body; and that was on the most basic of basic work.  For example he was unable to perform a bridge for the first 18 months or so without extreme discomfort.  

This just brings me so much hope .

Thanks for your answer, Coach.

It is so interesting that someone who was probably regarded as very athletic to the man on the street is not considered remotely so in gymnastics circles! What is considered good mobility or strength or body awareness or movement or agility, etc, etc. in the general population doesn't even register in gymnastics circles.

I guess the question still remains to Coach: how was Dillon able to go from a "wreck" to relatively advanced strength moves in such a short period of time? Is talent coupled with hard work the reason, as has been suggested above.

Interesting discussion and thanks for everyone's replies, especially Coach.

Cheers,

Neil

It wasn't relatively quickly; it required 3-4 years of hard, consistent effort.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

It wasn't relatively quickly; it required 3-4 years of hard, consistent effort.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

And, if I remember correctly, the first year didn't result in particularly incredible gains. It took a while for his body to adjust, and that this same thing will happen to all of us if we decide to make gymnastic training a lifestyle instead of a 4 month hobby.

We have to realize that the investment is worthwhile, but that it may take some time to see the seeds of our hard work sprout into something impressive. I think the key is to have faith in the basic truth of athletics: Consistently striving to master what you are doing NOW before you look ahead to the next step is the key to success.

Coach Sommer said:

It wasn't relatively quickly; it required 3-4 years of hard, consistent effort.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

It's not quick but it is relatively quick when compared to the foundation length. Although in saying that I assume most people aren't going to require the whole 5.5 years to achieve the mastery and you can't compare self trained to being coached by coach sommer!

ewethestuff said:

L O L

How many people have not repeated a single microcycle yet?

 

When F1 came out so many people complained about the length (5.5 years!) We would all be so lucky... to work so hard so consistently, to not get injured or have life or jobs or family get in the way, to not have huge mobility deficits to overcome, to maintain intensity over that period.... I think that timeline is quite ambitious. 

I've said it before, but I would be absolutely delighted to have a mana in 6 years.

FredInChina said:

I've said it before, but I would be absolutely delighted to have a mana in 6 years.

Preach!

(Although I'm totally going to try to do it in less)

The reason I say that's simply because I once I achieved hbp pe3 for example I already had mastery for the next 3 exercises. And my strength is okay but my endurance takes ages for me to build from what I understand f1-f4 the hold time and reps decreases. Also before foundation I was training flat tuck fl but could do a half lay. What you train migh not necessarily be what you can actually do. Of course some exercises may take longer some will be shorter depending on individual strengths and weaknesses. After mastery of fl pe1 I almost had fl pe2 mastery as well.

Also the op said relatively fast. Of course 3-4 years isn't a short amount of time but considering he is beyond the end goals of foundation series which is an expected 5.5 years then yes it is relatively quick again though I must say you can't compare the training given while working directly with coach to the foundation series.

ausswe said:

The reason I say that's simply because I once I achieved hbp pe3 for example I already had mastery for the next 3 exercises. And my strength is okay but my endurance takes ages for me to build from what I understand f1-f4 the hold time and reps decreases. Also before foundation I was training flat tuck fl but could do a half lay. What you train migh not necessarily be what you can actually do. Of course some exercises may take longer some will be shorter depending on individual strengths and weaknesses. After mastery of fl pe1 I almost had fl pe2 mastery as well.

Also the op said relatively fast. Of course 3-4 years isn't a short amount of time but considering he is beyond the end goals of foundation series which is an expected 5.5 years then yes it is relatively quick again though I must say you can't compare the training given while working directly with coach to the foundation series.

Saying 5.5 years is the expected time is really misleading, for that reason. 5.5 years for complete beginners or people with limited mobility. Others, I'm sure the vast majority of people, will find that after spending full cycles on 1-2 elements they will be loose/strong enough to test through higher ones, or only spend 4-8 weeks on them to brush up, particularly if they have a strength training background.

I can't see people needing to spend a full 3 months on *every* element to master it, once they build up some momentum with it. Note that choosing to take it slower and milk the gains,  or correct/rehab some particular mobility issue/injury is absolutely legit and is distinct from what I am saying here. Nothing requires you to spend more time on elements for the sake of spending time; personally I believe in absolutely spending as much time as is needed on an element to hit those standards, but only that amount of time-- if it's genuinely mastered with form/tempo/replicability (ie not a one-shot effort because the stars aligned) then your time is simply better spent with a higher stimulation exercise. Part of progress is moving on and not always being in your comfort zone.

I've tested through most of F1 and F2 pretty fast, and now I've hit some gaps that require 2-3 months of dedicated practise to get up to scratch, like FLPE13. I have already tried FLPE14 and know that it's fairly easy. I spent about 4 months at RC6 then tested up through 7-13 (deloading now on 13, but will test it for mastery tomorrow) in one session each. That's why I love the course approach-- take time on your weaknesses, skip through your strengths. Good for keeping the ego in check!

Edit;

And while of course working with the right teacher gives you gains beyond anything you can work out on your own (very familiar to me when I met my Sifu and he corrected five years of bad habits in ten minutes), for those of us who aren't planning to compete in gymnastics, there is a lot to be said for the feeling of accomplishment in discovering the cues and tricks to complete an element successfully on our own. This really appeals to me and is part of enjoying the journey instead of regarding it as downtime until you hit the destination. You're going to be spending that time, if you want the result, so it makes a lot of sense to enjoy it!

Edit edit;

Sorry for the opinion thesis