Gymnasts Muscle Mass

If you look at the majority of elite level gymnasts you will notice that they are very big. If you look at Coaches Athletes they too have decent size. Gymnasts typically don't eat excess calories as that would result in unnecessary muscle mass. In a matter of fact they don't pay as much attention to their diet as you would think. I recall an elite level gymnast saying that he ate chicken and soup and that was it. Now elite level gymnasts have been training for many many years. Could this explain why they have built such large amounts of muscle on a crap diet. I'm an ectomorph and I don't count my calories. I have been training F1 and have become bigger. I know this because my shirts fit a lot tighter. I haven't gained a single kg though. I believe I have become bigger because of the shock value of F1. My body gets used to doing one exercise and then all of a sudden it changes. Is it true that you can shock your muscles to grow bigger? This could maybe explain why gymnasts get bigger and bigger as they progress even on a crap diet.

Sorry for the long post but i'm sure a lot of members will find this interesting

Super Saiyan said:

If you look at the majority of elite level gymnasts you will notice that they are very big. If you look at Coaches Athletes they too have decent size. Gymnasts typically don't eat excess calories as that would result in unnecessary muscle mass. In a matter of fact they don't pay as much attention to their diet as you would think. I recall an elite level gymnast saying that he ate chicken and soup and that was it. Now elite level gymnasts have been training for many many years. Could this explain why they have built such large amounts of muscle on a crap diet. I'm an ectomorph and I don't count my calories. I have been training F1 and have become bigger. I know this because my shirts fit a lot tighter. I haven't gained a single kg though. I believe I have become bigger because of the shock value of F1. My body gets used to doing one exercise and then all of a sudden it changes. Is it true that you can shock your muscles to grow bigger? This could maybe explain why gymnasts get bigger and bigger as they progress even on a crap diet.

 

Sorry for the long post but i'm sure a lot of members will find this interesting

I'm not sure what you're actually asking or trying to talk about - it's a bit vague.

Yes it is. I apologise for that. Basically I want to know how gymnasts build large amounts of muscle on a crap diet.

Super Saiyan said:

Yes it is. I apologise for that. Basically I want to know how gymnasts build large amounts of muscle on a crap diet.

It's a pretty big generalization to say that gymnasts live on a crap diet - probably wrong in most cases. What's wrong with chicken and soup?

Super Saiyan said:

Yes it is. I apologise for that. Basically I want to know how gymnasts build large amounts of muscle on a crap diet.

You'd have to narrow down on whom you're counting as "gymnasts", how much muscle they've actually gained and what they were eating during that time period. I don't think the question really makes sense. 

And then, what you really mean by "how" they do it. What kind of answer are you after?

Soup and chicken is actually a pretty decent diet...

Soup could be, as Josh refers to it, a crapton of vegetables in water.

I think you almost answer your own question:

Super Saiyan said:

Now elite level gymnasts have been training for many many years. 

If you are consistent in your training and nutrition you will over many years accumulate a lot of muscle. 2kg a year for 5 years is 10kg - that's not even 200g per month of lean muscle mass increase. I'd be happy with that!

"Elite-level gymnasts" are of course also the last few remaining after years of selection, with 100s or 1000s of other people discarded or dropped along the way. It's a bit like wondering how top basketball players get so tall.

FredInChina said:

Soup and chicken is actually a pretty decent diet...

Unless it's fried chicken.

I doubt Coach's athletes actually eat a 'crap' diet. At their age, they can get away with poorer nutrition than you or I, but they've still got to be getting calories, protein and nutrients to build all that muscle. Any adult you see competing at a national or international level is almost certainly eating healthy. 

Most likely you are an ectomorph because you don't eat enough to gain weight. You're not going to grow huge amounts of muscle if your body doesn't take in a reasonable surplus of protein and calories during the day. 

Joel Tomkins said:

Soup could be, as Josh refers to it, a crapton of vegetables in water.

 

I think you almost answer your own question:

 

 

If you are consistent in your training and nutrition you will over many years accumulate a lot of muscle. 2kg a year for 5 years is 10kg - that's not even 200g per month of lean muscle mass increase. I'd be happy with that!

Exactly. I went from 73 kg in 2008 to 83 kg half a year ago, and I am at a noticably lower bodyfat level now. Most of it is probably lower-body gains, since I did a lot of kettlebell-stuff back then; but I never ate supplements, apart from four-five months where I ate whey, which did absolutely nothing for me. So an ordinary diet, albeit with the worst types of crap weeded out, can do a lot in the long term.

Part of why gymnasts build up slowly is that their nutrition is often lacking. It's not something to brag about... even though many people do.

Gymnasts aren't athletes who need muscle for the sake of muscle, but when that muscle comes from performing their skills it is USEFUL muscle and most (if not all) of the time will actually assist them in becoming better athletes, because it is a sport-specific response.

Gymnasts training 4 hours per day just burn such a huge amount of energy that it can be very hard to keep up with the food demand... they would need to eat more than I do with my current schedule, and even I would have a hard time with that. in this case, getting more protein more frequently helps quite a bit, but again gymnasts aren't quite doing this either.

Why? I don't have answers, and no one really does. Most that I have talked to seem to feel they are doing fine without good nutrition, much like I tend to do well without studying. It doesn't make it optimal... it just means there's usually a lot of wasted potential.

That's why i have worked so hard to develop study habits over the past year... it's easier to be better than everyone else in class when I study a little bit, and while it isn't exactly my driving motivation it DOES feel good to be the best, even when you are a big fish in a small pond (GSU is not full of the world's brightest, in my opinion).

I absolutely believe that gymnasts could become better gymnasts with better nutrition... it works in every other sport. I do not believe gymnastics to be an exception.

Daily use of all your muscles causes your body to hang on to what it's got, so long as you don't do obscene things to yourself like unreasonable eccentric damage combined with a very low calorie, very low protein diet. Most people get close to enough calories, and that is the primary determinant for lean mass retention. You have to remember that your body can lower its metabolism by up to 30-40% in response to your food intake, and that this absolutely has systemic effects that you do not intend...

Metabolism = how quickly your body processes energy, takes apart things that need to be taken apart, and creates the things that need to be made for growth or maintenance of tissues. Slower metabolism means slower muscle gains and slower recovery.

Why doesn't this seem to affect people so severely? Because our muscles adapt their internal connective structures to resist damage. This happens fairly quickly, and lasts for a long time, so if you're training all the time you never lose this adaptation. You can still slowly degrade, and I've seen people do this, but it's hard to do. We are hard to kill, and easy to keep running, but it takes specific conditions to make us the absolute best we can be and most people do not fulfill these conditions.

Joel Tomkins said:

It's a pretty big generalization to say that gymnasts live on a crap diet - probably wrong in most cases. What's wrong with chicken and soup?

Nothing it was just an example. The gymnast looked baffled when the interviewer asked him what is your diet like. His reply was something along the lines of "Ahhh diet? I like chicken and soup."

emos said:

You'd have to narrow down on whom you're counting as "gymnasts", how much muscle they've actually gained and what they were eating during that time period. I don't think the question really makes sense. 

 

And then, what you really mean by "how" they do it. What kind of answer are you after?

I'm focussing on elite level gymnasts. I'm looking for a factual answer as too why elite level gymnasts build large amounts of muscle on an average diet. 

FredInChina said:

Soup and chicken is actually a pretty decent diet...

I love chicken and soup I was just merely using it as an example. In a matter of fact chicken breast is my favourite meat.

Joshua Naterman said:

Part of why gymnasts build up slowly is that their nutrition is often lacking. It's not something to brag about... even though many people do.

 

Gymnasts aren't athletes who need muscle for the sake of muscle, but when that muscle comes from performing their skills it is USEFUL muscle and most (if not all) of the time will actually assist them in becoming better athletes, because it is a sport-specific response.

 

Gymnasts training 4 hours per day just burn such a huge amount of energy that it can be very hard to keep up with the food demand... they would need to eat more than I do with my current schedule, and even I would have a hard time with that. in this case, getting more protein more frequently helps quite a bit, but again gymnasts aren't quite doing this either.

 

Why? I don't have answers, and no one really does. Most that I have talked to seem to feel they are doing fine without good nutrition, much like I tend to do well without studying. It doesn't make it optimal... it just means there's usually a lot of wasted potential.

 

That's why i have worked so hard to develop study habits over the past year... it's easier to be better than everyone else in class when I study a little bit, and while it isn't exactly my driving motivation it DOES feel good to be the best, even when you are a big fish in a small pond (GSU is not full of the world's brightest, in my opinion).

 

I absolutely believe that gymnasts could become better gymnasts with better nutrition... it works in every other sport. I do not believe gymnastics to be an exception.

 

Daily use of all your muscles causes your body to hang on to what it's got, so long as you don't do obscene things to yourself like unreasonable eccentric damage combined with a very low calorie, very low protein diet. Most people get close to enough calories, and that is the primary determinant for lean mass retention. You have to remember that your body can lower its metabolism by up to 30-40% in response to your food intake, and that this absolutely has systemic effects that you do not intend...

 

Metabolism = how quickly your body processes energy, takes apart things that need to be taken apart, and creates the things that need to be made for growth or maintenance of tissues. Slower metabolism means slower muscle gains and slower recovery.

 

Why doesn't this seem to affect people so severely? Because our muscles adapt their internal connective structures to resist damage. This happens fairly quickly, and lasts for a long time, so if you're training all the time you never lose this adaptation. You can still slowly degrade, and I've seen people do this, but it's hard to do. We are hard to kill, and easy to keep running, but it takes specific conditions to make us the absolute best we can be and most people do not fulfill these conditions.

have you considered doing a sticky in the nutrition forum covering nutrition in the other 20+hrs that we do not spend working out? basics like percentage of carbs/protein/fat ratio, how often we should eat and when not to. I'm looking for this kind of information because of my hyperthyroidism and i've notice i've gone up in body fat% due to eating out and such

emos said:

"Elite-level gymnasts" are of course also the last few remaining after years of selection, with 100s or 1000s of other people discarded or dropped along the way. It's a bit like wondering how top basketball players get so tall.

Yes this is a good point. 

I just want to add that soup is an awesome meal especially if it comes from bone broth. Honestly there really aren't many more nutritious meals than bone broth and veggies.

Hari_Seldon said:

I doubt Coach's athletes actually eat a 'crap' diet. At their age, they can get away with poorer nutrition than you or I, but they've still got to be getting calories, protein and nutrients to build all that muscle. Any adult you see competing at a national or international level is almost certainly eating healthy. 

 

Most likely you are an ectomorph because you don't eat enough to gain weight. You're not going to grow huge amounts of muscle if your body doesn't take in a reasonable surplus of protein and calories during the day. 

Mind you i'm 19 years old and Allan Bower is 18 I believe. I gained wayyyyyy too much fat when I was eating excess calories. At this time I was lifting weights. Yeah sure I gained 3-4kg of weight but It wasn't muscle. At the moment I've built lean muscle.

Joshua Naterman said:

Part of why gymnasts build up slowly is that their nutrition is often lacking. It's not something to brag about... even though many people do.

 

Gymnasts aren't athletes who need muscle for the sake of muscle, but when that muscle comes from performing their skills it is USEFUL muscle and most (if not all) of the time will actually assist them in becoming better athletes, because it is a sport-specific response.

 

Gymnasts training 4 hours per day just burn such a huge amount of energy that it can be very hard to keep up with the food demand... they would need to eat more than I do with my current schedule, and even I would have a hard time with that. in this case, getting more protein more frequently helps quite a bit, but again gymnasts aren't quite doing this either.

 

Why? I don't have answers, and no one really does. Most that I have talked to seem to feel they are doing fine without good nutrition, much like I tend to do well without studying. It doesn't make it optimal... it just means there's usually a lot of wasted potential.

 

That's why i have worked so hard to develop study habits over the past year... it's easier to be better than everyone else in class when I study a little bit, and while it isn't exactly my driving motivation it DOES feel good to be the best, even when you are a big fish in a small pond (GSU is not full of the world's brightest, in my opinion).

 

I absolutely believe that gymnasts could become better gymnasts with better nutrition... it works in every other sport. I do not believe gymnastics to be an exception.

 

Daily use of all your muscles causes your body to hang on to what it's got, so long as you don't do obscene things to yourself like unreasonable eccentric damage combined with a very low calorie, very low protein diet. Most people get close to enough calories, and that is the primary determinant for lean mass retention. You have to remember that your body can lower its metabolism by up to 30-40% in response to your food intake, and that this absolutely has systemic effects that you do not intend...

 

Metabolism = how quickly your body processes energy, takes apart things that need to be taken apart, and creates the things that need to be made for growth or maintenance of tissues. Slower metabolism means slower muscle gains and slower recovery.

 

Why doesn't this seem to affect people so severely? Because our muscles adapt their internal connective structures to resist damage. This happens fairly quickly, and lasts for a long time, so if you're training all the time you never lose this adaptation. You can still slowly degrade, and I've seen people do this, but it's hard to do. We are hard to kill, and easy to keep running, but it takes specific conditions to make us the absolute best we can be and most people do not fulfill these conditions.

This is the answer I was looking for. I knew I wasn't the only one who knew about gymnasts and their not so awesome diet.

Super Saiyan said:

I'm focussing on elite level gymnasts. I'm looking for a factual answer as too why elite level gymnasts build large amounts of muscle on an average diet. 

Bodies adapt to the stress being applied to them. Train as much as an "elite" gymnast does every day every week every year for 20+ years, and you're bound to grow. I'm not saying gymnasts can magically build muscle out of thin air, but this subject isn't simply black or white as you seem to believe.

Super Saiyan said:

This is the answer I was looking for. I knew I wasn't the only one who knew about gymnasts and their not so awesome diet.

As detailed as Josh's answer is, there is nothing magic in there. When he says "without good nutrition" he means without ideal nutrition. They aren't eating Big Mac's three times a day, neither are they only eating a carrot and a stick of celery a day. There is a huge difference between a diet that is just not even close and one that is almost there, and further refinement to a perfect diet does not give the same increase in performance.

As Josh says they build up slowly, over years of 4 hour training sessions. Even a small increase multiplied by years is going to result in a large total increase. It's not that surprising! 

Joel Tomkins said:

As detailed as Josh's answer is, there is nothing magic in there. When he says "without good nutrition" he means without ideal nutrition. They aren't eating Big Mac's three times a day, neither are they only eating a carrot and a stick of celery a day. There is a huge difference between a diet that is just not even close and one that is almost there, and further refinement to a perfect diet does not give the same increase in performance.

As Josh says they build up slowly, over years of 4 hour training sessions. Even a small increase multiplied by years is going to result in a large total increase. It's not that surprising! 

 

By "not so awesome" I meant an average diet.

This conversation comes up a lot. And with the same answers.

1. Elite Gymnasts are generally gifted with ability to maintain very low body-fat

2. Elite Gymnasts put a ton of work in.

3. Elite Gymnasts are relatively young.

Besides number 1 there isn't too much special going on.  Even I have a hard time keeping weight on from the workload of 3 hours a day in the gymnastics gym and I am by no means gifted.  

Though I should mention that I have a friend who does in fact eat McDonalds, Wendys, and other fast food several times a day and has less than 10% bodyfat and a ton of muscle.  Josh knows him as well.  He is a very good athlete and while I don't want to detract from his training focus he is also gifted. 

There's quite a lot of science that says that as long as you're getting somewhere around 1.2-1.4g of protein per kg, which for a gymnast is like 70-80g of protein (pretty hard not to achieve) the primary thing that makes you build muscle is calories. Doesn't seem to matter terribly much what they are, because they are simply fueling the protein synthesis and it doesn't take THAT much protein to make slow gains.

You can't make generalizations but Daniel and I know one guy (David)who refuses to eat vegetables, ever, except for when he leans out for a big competition. He was an NCAA competitor, one of the best on floor apparently. He won NAIGC floor this year I believe. Another, Blake, is a pizza hog, but he's ripped and buff. He's one of THOSE guys, seriously, and while cleaner food would help him out he already has more than enough muscle, and just needs to spend time developing his joints.

At the OTC they try to give athletes exactly what they need, but you can't force the athletes to eat something they don't want to eat, whether it is better for them or not. Apparently Jonathan Horton also has a disdain for veggies.

As long as the basic raw materials are there, and that means a fairly moderate amount of protein + enough calories to keep the engine running and enough water to keep you hydrated, you're going to get stronger and more muscular with time.

The degree to which this happens, and how much muscle you gain, is heavily dependent on both diet and genetics, and this is where you kind of have to realize that some people don't need more muscle, and some do. If you look at Donnell Whittenburg's 2012 Visa footage, you can probably tell that he doesn't need all that much more muscle since he's pretty ridiculously jacked. I do not know anything at all about what he eats, so let's not speculate wildly. You can see that his ring handstands generally aren't very solid, and I'm not sure I've ever seen him straight arm press to handstand. The things that he pulled off in 2013 Winter Cup finals were not all completely solid (Still a long way from visas at the time), a big step down from this 2012 VISA performance, but I will link the Visa 2012 rings routine to highlight Donnell's boss-like strength (and still unstable ring handstand):

On the other end of the spectrum, Akash Modi is an incredibly skilled gymnast but, if you watch his rings routines, he clearly does not the same level of raw ring strength as Donnell. For Akash, a few extra pounds of muscle might go a long way. Of course, in theory it could also interfere with his pommel work, so care would have to be taken to monitor performance in areas where more upper body muscle has typically been a hindrance. Akash does completely own Donnell on the pommel horse....

Akash's 2013 rings so far:

As a reference, Donnell is about 9 months older than Akash. You can see that they have very different styles, and each plays to their own unique talents.