How bad are grains/bread, seriously?

I've been following a somewhat-Paleo diet for a few months now, and after cutting out the additives, preservatives, corn syrup, and hydrogenated oils from my regular daily consumption I would say my energy levels have stabilized and I feel pretty good.

But out of all the things I cut, I would say the hardest one for me was grains. I've read all sorts of crap about how bad grains are whether you're celiac or not, how they're what intiated the "diseases of civilization", etc. But I have read from Michael Pollan that he doubts an almost 6,000 year old western staple like bread is responsible for our sudden health issues, unless of course he's unaware of the latest research on grains.

Now, I haven't really eaten ANY grains/bread in the last couple of months except for white rice, which I hear is perfectly fine due to it being gluten-free and having the phytic acid stripped from it, and two slices of pizza and a piece of german chocolate cake and rum cake due to family events; all of which caused me NO stomach problems or anything else significant, so I think it's safe to say I'm fairly gluten tolerant.

From what I understand, though, is that gluten affects everyone the same and tears up your stomach lining, but to varying degrees depending on the person and usually leads to IBS, leaky gut, etc. I even heard someone on Marks Daily Apple say that eating just ONE piece of bread can cause TEN DAYS worth of damage to your stomach lining, and Mark Sisson himself is absolutely against grains as he believes we humans we not designed to eat them. On the other hand, I've heard on this forum that phytic acid really isn't that big of a deal if you're eating lots of vegetables, and that green vegetables actually somewhat negate the effects of the acid, if I'm not mistaken.

So what's the verdict, guys? Is enjoying a piece of whole grain bread for breakfast every once in awhile going to kill me?

Firstly, whoever doesn't wish to eat bread or gains, more power to you. If you don't wish to, don't. It's a free world,

at least to that point.

Gluten is obviously bad news if you have celiac disease. However, is everyone else at risk?

Basically, like an airplane crash it is rarely one single factor that causes the accident. It is a cascade. And for the worst-case scenario to play out, all of the unfortunate events must happen. 

Not knowing if you do or don't fit into this category may not be simple.

As well, keep in mind that getting some anti-nutrients into your bloodstream may be desirable. I posted a link

to this in the anti-nutrient thread.

And also keep in mind that intestinal lining is regularly sloughed off and replaced in humans. It's part of

protein turnover. The body reabsorbs bits and pieces of the lining and uses it to rebuilt it, and other parts

of the body that are also frequently rebuilt. I believe that the intestinal lining accounts for 20% of the body's

protein turnover. When this is working right, of course it gets damaged and repaired. It was designed or

evolved that way.

So it's wrong to say universally that gluten in any amount will cause everyone a problem. It just doesn't. Gluten has not been proven to lead to leaky gut or other diseases in living humans exclusive of other factors, to the best of my knowledge. There are multiple factors involved.

Here's some background on this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2886850/

I am not a scientist, MD or RD however my feeling is that if you trust your gut ( ) and your body's reaction then go for  that slice of bread. Best enjoyed fresh out of the oven with a pat of butter!

I don't know about you but I feel great and don't shy away from a tasty sandwich or bagel or quinoa or most grains.  I find rye bread particularly tasty. I only avoid sugar and empty carbs.  Obsess about your training and take diet and rest seriously, once you find a diet that works for you stay consistent just as you do with your training because it will take your body months to adjust to dietary changes.

I just baked a nice Swedish bread loaf two days ago, and it was delicious.

The deal with glutein is this: It is one of the first substances to make us realize that food sensitivities can have wide-ranging systemic effects. You don't need to be scared of bread, particularly fresh bread that you bake yourself (even moreso if you do a sourdough fermentation) UNLESS you are gluten intolerant.

There might be quite a bit of health benefits to cutting gluten out of your daily life, but we don't know that for sure, and it would almost certainly be dose-dependent.

dncmanam put it best: Avoid junk,

Eat whole foods and plenty of veggies, and get the protein you need, but beyond that don't obsess too much about the food details unless you go get a food sensitivity test so that you know which of the foods you eat are the most problematic for your body.

Also look into the development of modern varieties of grains. I believe one type was developed in the 60s that is considered to have greater toxicity. I may have even read that on this forum.

I think if you prepare them correctly (fermentation) then you don't have to be all that worried.

All the new GMO stuff has made it very hard to know what is going on.

I definitely think these foods play a role in quite a few peoples' issues, but the trend in chronic disease has been so steady, and so well correlated with technology, and a changing work environment, decreasing the physical activity of the general population (as well as the increased presence of sugars in food, and the switch from home-cooked foods to heavily processed pre-made meals) that I am not sure any of these GMO products can bear a particularly large part of the blame in what we are seeing, in terms of health outcomes.

Still, those new varieties are worth reading up on.

Joshua Naterman said:

All the new GMO stuff has made it very hard to know what is going on.

 

I definitely think these foods play a role in quite a few peoples' issues, but the trend in chronic disease has been so steady, and so well correlated with technology, and a changing work environment, decreasing the physical activity of the general population (as well as the increased presence of sugars in food, and the switch from home-cooked foods to heavily processed pre-made meals) that I am not sure any of these GMO products can bear a particularly large part of the blame in what we are seeing, in terms of health outcomes.

 

Still, those new varieties are worth reading up on.

Agreed.  I still think the biggest culprits as far as diet is concerned are sugar and processed vegetable oils.  I don't eat much gluten anymore but occasionally will end up bingeing on a good pizza or hamburger.

Bread is also hard for me to give up.  I often look longingly at the dinner rolls and breadsticks people are eating.  Its pretty much the only thing in my diet I really miss.  I am lucky to not have a sweet tooth even as a kid.

Couldn´t get the Quote thing working. Sorry for the inconvenience.

"The deal with glutein is this: It is one of the first substances to make us realize that food sensitivities can have wide-ranging systemic effects. You don't need to be scared of bread, particularly fresh bread that you bake yourself (even moreso if you do a sourdough fermentation) UNLESS you are gluten intolerant."

Regarding to this. Can simple test like the one linked below provide anywhere reliable results when it comes to testing food intolerances? Or is a full blown lab test the only worthwhile option?

http://www.food-detective.com.au/test-yourself/

Thanks.

We aren't really entirely sure about gluten and other antinutrients but as far as I remember(and indeed remember) the studies suggest that gluten intolerance is more common than we have expected, not all just get get regular celiac symptoms. And because the grains are so big part of people's nutrition, those people do not know how it feels to be off-grains. 

Therefore, I would recommend people trying 30-60 days challenges where they give up gluten grains entirely and see how they feel. I did this and when I returned to grains my stomach did not like it one bit. You might also want to do the same to dairy. Also, I recommend taking real gluten blood tests to see how it affects your body. In my opinion those drug store tests aren't enough because although you may not have the celiac's disease, your body might still react badly to gluten or other grains' antinutrients.

I did the 60 day challenge because my grandfather is suffering from severe dementia and my father has gut problems.

My only concern with the cut it out for a period of time type challenges is that over time your body stops producing the enzymes it needs to break down those foods and re-introducing them it may be difficult to observe the difference between a legit issue and one you self created from abstaining for a long duration. I don't think 30 days is enough, but I do wonder about the 60 or 90 day marks. Honestly, I think 2 weeks is long enough to note a difference if one is truly sensitive.

The best example of this is vegetarian folks that get a tummy ache and other digestive issues when they have a soup with beef stock as a base. It is an issue created entirely from cutting something completely out of the diet for so long.

One other thing to consider is that many of these allergies are simply cumulative. Adding all of the food allergy items together may push one over the edge while individually the body is capable of handling the response.

I think answering the philisophical portion of the last question posed is more helpful though: "Is enjoying a piece of whole grain bread for breakfast every once in awhile going to kill me?" I say who cares? Even if it is, but you enjoy it does it really matter? I know plenty of folks that obsess over this stuff and frankly the stress they seem to feel from the constant paranoia seems a more likely diminisher of life than the grains themselves.

IMO as long as you realize the grains aren't the bottom/majority of the pyramid as we were brainwashed in schools I think you are fine.

- Chris

So, that food detective test is pretty interesting.

Without a validity test, using a valid lab test as a control and testing the sensitivity and accuracy of the Food Detective kit by comparing the results, it is impossible to say how good it is.

The blood tests from the lab test something like 400-500 foods, which is a lot more than what you get with the food detective, and I believe you can select specific things that may not be on the regular list, so there IS a significant difference in the range of the test, if nothing else. Well... the blood tests are also expensive, at 500-900 USD for the test, but it's a one shot deal. You get it, and then you know, and it's a small price to pay compared to even a few doctor visits for unknown medical problems that may be due to food sensitivities.

Good points Chris. I personally have made a decision that I just do not buy any bread or other gluten products but when offered or available elsewhere(like in parties/celebrations) I eat, I like it and I do not stress about it. Even if you are slightly intolerant, those foods will not do harm in a long run because you are not having similar events every day of the week. I have similar approach to sweets as well. 

Joshua Naterman said:

So, that food detective test is pretty interesting.

 

Without a validity test, using a valid lab test as a control and testing the sensitivity and accuracy of the Food Detective kit by comparing the results, it is impossible to say how good it is.

 

The blood tests from the lab test something like 400-500 foods, which is a lot more than what you get with the food detective, and I believe you can select specific things that may not be on the regular list, so there IS a significant difference in the range of the test, if nothing else. Well... the blood tests are also expensive, at 500-900 USD for the test, but it's a one shot deal. You get it, and then you know, and it's a small price to pay compared to even a few doctor visits for unknown medical problems that may be due to food sensitivities.

Exactly what I have been thinking so far. I have taken the Food detective like a year ago. The results were that I had some type of moderate intolerance to dairy, gluten and cashews. The easiest way to determnie the validity of the Food detective would be to take a proper lab test. However the cost is relatively high, just as Joshua mentioned. Then again there aren´t many thing that are more worth investing in than your health in the long run.

Has there been a similar topic about dairy? If not, that would be useful.

Samui said:

Good points Chris. I personally have made a decision that I just do not buy any bread or other gluten products but when offered or available elsewhere(like in parties/celebrations) I eat, I like it and I do not stress about it. Even if you are slightly intolerant, those foods will not do harm in a long run because you are not having similar events every day of the week. I have similar approach to sweets as well.

My approach is very similar to this. About a year ago I did a whole30 experiment. I had already been primal for about a year at that point, so the biggest difference was totally avoiding grains and dairy (since I already didn't eat most processed foods, sugar, etc)

The month wwent well, no major issues after the first week where you still missed some stuff. I dropped about 6lbs, putting me at my lowest weight as an adult. I'm sure this had to do with reducing calories (that cream in coffee adds up after a while!) and also with decreased inflammation - but no way to tell which one was the biggest culprit there.

My first time back with gluten containing stuff I got a pretty bad headache, but I also had some ice cream in that meal so it could have been the combination of too many bad things at once. No adverse effect from re-introducing dairy.

Ever since then I just generally avoid grains but don't sweat it when I can't avoid them (or just don't feel like avoiding them).

I believe there are more benefits to be gained from avoiding the bigger offenders, and sticking to eating real whole foods more often than not. 80# of the time I'm strictly meat and veggies and I feel good this way.

So guys, I think it's safe to say I'm "partially" over my grainophobia.

I went through a bag of Bob's Red Mill steel cut oats over the last two weeks, having half a cup with sliced banana and berries for breakfast with eggs and vegetables daily. And it caused NO changes in my overall energy levels or strength those days; I would say it actually made them better

But today I got to work and had the strongest craving for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and it was at this time I remembered a bit of wisdom someone told me once:

"If you're going to "cheat", then make it worth it"

So after work I bought a small jar of Skippy Natural Peanut Butter, Crofter's Concord Grape Jelly, and fresh honey whole wheat bread from a bakery in town and got home as quick as possible to throw it all together.

Delicious.

Now, I'm not saying I'm going to go crazy on grains or anything but I think this experience has helped me put things into perspective a bit. But somebody's gotta finish that bread loaf, I guess.

So bad that they cause the human population to explode from a few hundre thousand to 7 billion and growing in just a several thousand years. I bet there isn't any other biological kind that multiplied so fast in such short time.

Also do I need to mention that the average human life span increased from about 20 years in paleo times up to 60-70-80 years in modern times (depending on the continent you are living in). 

Not sure if grains are the cause of people being able to live longer or if it's modern medicine which lets you inject insulin even with a dead pancreas or being able to perform surgeries. It's a bit off to give that credit to grains alone. There's a lot of reasons we live longer.

Then another can of worms is the overall quality of those years but that's another topic...

Indeed. I remember when we still believed that everything was made of earth, air, fire and water, our lifespans were that much shorter.

Knowledge of nuclear processes surely has allowed us to live longer than those silly plebeians of our past.

Alex Chubb said:

Not sure if grains are the cause of people being able to live longer or if it's modern medicine which lets you inject insulin even with a dead pancreas or being able to perform surgeries. It's a bit off to give that credit to grains alone. There's a lot of reasons we live longer.

Then another can of worms is the overall quality of those years but that's another topic...

Ahahaha

I think it's fair to say that free fructose, trans fats, and a lifestyle of physical inactivity are much more to blame than grains, based on the prevalence of all these items in period lifestyles and the corresponding public health trends, at least according to the best records that we have.

These heart and endocrine problems don't exist in native grain-heavy diets, but when people switch to a lifestyle that resembles Modern America and the Industrial (or Post-Industrial) Age... well, now we can start talking about injections and surgeries making a serious difference.

Not suggesting that all grains are equal, or that anything in particular is harmless OR harmful, just what I think is a very empirical, fundamentally sound view on the situation.

I keep seeing the word "allergy" pop up and wanted to suggest that most of what we're talking about in an "intolerance". True food allergies are fairly rare and it's a word that's overused. I'm not trying to be nit-picky, I just want to make sure that as people are searching for information they're using the right search terms. If you're searching for the word "allergy" in peer-reviewed sources you're not likely to find much on the things we're discussing here.

Joshua Naterman said:

Ahahaha

 

I think it's fair to say that free fructose, trans fats, and a lifestyle of physical inactivity are much more to blame than grains, based on the prevalence of all these items in period lifestyles and the corresponding public health trends, at least according to the best records that we have.

 

These heart and endocrine problems don't exist in native grain-heavy diets, but when people switch to a lifestyle that resembles Modern America and the Industrial (or Post-Industrial) Age... well, now we can start talking about injections and surgeries making a serious difference.

 

 

Not suggesting that all grains are equal, or that anything in particular is harmless OR harmful, just what I think is a very empirical, fundamentally sound view on the situation.

Of course! You know I'm not dogmatic. I just don't think grains are the reason we as humans live longer lives compared to our ability to outlive instances where nature would weed us out. I will definitely say that I have seen people do well without even an idea of what a good diet is. Just lots of physical activity.

First a word of warning for me and my post:  I do not know enough about nutrition.  The more I read or try to read about it the more I get confused and the more I read contradicting statements.  I now try to follow the simple advice of eating food that's as close to natural as I can (plants/annimals).  The exception to this being some dairy products (yogurt/cheese). 

I know this is anecdotal, but here's my .2:

Although I tried to eat like I mentioned above, before, I used to eat bread/rice/potatoes along with my food.  I also love pasta so I would eat pasta once or twice a week. And usually would have a bowl of muesli late at night (wrong time for it I'm told).

I've stopped eating bread, pasta, rice, potatoes since ~50 days.  The effects I've noticed has been I've gotten slimmer (I'm pretty slim long limbed to begin with but had some fat around the belly end especially in my lower back that would not budge).  I feel better overall.  I feel stronger during my workouts (its easier to perform the movements I'm working on, and fatigue buildup during training is lessened).

During these ~50 days I had to travel long distance for about 18 days. 

I already find it hard to eat right when I'm in my usual routine where I have to eat out every day, but trying to eat anything on the road was impossible.  EVERYTHING had bread.  The airplane food was literally 80% rice/mashed potatoes/bread and 20% things I could eat.  Airports were pretty bad as well.  The only place I could have food was airport restaurants (not food courts/cafes nothing) so if I did not have enough time I could not eat... which is even worse.

So now that I cut these things out and am trying to see the long term effects, I notice more and more that there is very few options for people that don't prepare their own food when eating out.  

The one thing I'm debating adding back in is a bowl of muesli about 90 minutes before my workouts, but I don't know enough about nutrition to determine weather this would be better or worse for me.

Cutting these foods out was harder than I thought.  Not only are they EVERYWHERE and sometimes the ONLY food choice presented to you, but I also am (strangely) craving them.  Sometimes when I feel hungry (before my main lunch/dinner) the things that will pop into my mind will be sandwiches and pasta/burgers.  I'm lucky enough not to crave sweets, I was never a sweets guy, but these cravings are a whole new thing to me that require a lot of self control to overcome.  I thought they would lessen over time but even almost two months in they are still there.